FrankenSAM Project

_Del_ said:
Air defense is one of the cogs they are exploring as part of ACE. It still sees that as an Army responsibility under a joint force (under USAF command). Easy to see why there might be some assumptions that need ironing out on either side of such an arrangement, but I haven't seen much in the way of AF interest in actually operating SAMS or the IBCS.
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I suspect that the USAF interest in operating SAMs or IBCS is strictly in terms of defending their airbases. Anything else is Army mess.
 
timmymagic said:
So....could this be re-use of AA-10 (Vympel R-27)? The Houthi's have re-used as a SAM...and there could be reasonable stocks out there for re-use, supply from ex-Warpac states and on the arms market...
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According to more recent releases, it's just the name given to the Supacat ASRAAM-armed truck we saw come out about 2 years ago. Maybe this indicated that the UK has deemed that it has enough older ASRAAMs that it needs to dispose of that it would be able to supply them in decent numbers to Ukraine. Perhaps it's a sign of things to come, maybe they'll start integrating them with aircraft or other SAM systems.
 
So in addition to using surplus AA-11 Archer AAMs I wonder if they will also use surplus AA-8 Aphids and AA-10 Alamos (Specifically the IR-guided variants)?
 
NMaude said:
So in addition to using surplus AA-11 Archer AAMs I wonder if they will also use surplus AA-8 Aphids and AA-10 Alamos (Specifically the IR-guided variants)?
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I thought an R-27 solution was more likely to be honest....but apparently the Ukrainian's have very large stocks of R-73.

AA-8 has been seen....on MI-24 and SU-25...but I suspect usable stocks are very low.

Here's the full Forces News piece on it.....apparently the Ukrainian's didn't want it initially....

www.forcesnews.com

British innovation and Soviet-designed missiles help Ukraine take the fight to Russia

The Gravehawk mobile air defence system sees stocks of Soviet-designed Vympel R-73 air-to-air missiles repurposed for surface-to-air use.
www.forcesnews.com www.forcesnews.com
 
timmymagic said:
Twin R-73 mounted in 20ft ISO on dismountable rack for hooklift truck, operators station in the container with what appears to be the same EO/IR system as seen on the Supacat/Asraam units
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(grumbling) Could anyone explain to me, why NATO decommissioned MIM-72 Chaparral in 2000s only to spend more money and efforts to re-invent it again in 2020s? They could just leave the ol' Chappy.
 
Dilandu said:
(grumbling) Could anyone explain to me, why NATO decommissioned MIM-72 Chaparral in 2000s only to spend more money and efforts to re-invent it again in 2020s? They could just leave the ol' Chappy.
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To be honest by the time you'd updated Chapparal to handle modern missiles, added modern EO/IR...you might as well have just built a shipping container...

If you want a really egregious loss...look at the UK's Rapier system. We managed to retire 10's of launchers and thousands of missiles just 1 year before Ukraine. It would have been perfect for defending against CM and Drones. It wasn't the Rapier of old either, essentially a new system in the late 90's /early 2000's....
 
timmymagic said:
If you want a really egregious loss...look at the UK's Rapier system. We managed to retire 10's of launchers and thousands of missiles just 1 year before Ukraine. It would have been perfect for defending against CM and Drones. It wasn't the Rapier of old either, essentially a new system in the late 90's /early 2000's....
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Well, just consider how many perfectly usable military equipment we, Russians, scrapped in 2000-2010s under assumptions that "this old stuff is of no use anymore"...
 
timmymagic said:
If you want a really egregious loss...look at the UK's Rapier system. We managed to retire 10's of launchers and thousands of missiles just 1 year before Ukraine. It would have been perfect for defending against CM and Drones. It wasn't the Rapier of old either, essentially a new system in the late 90's /early 2000's....
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Can't they just pull the Rapier stuff out of storage, refurbish it and send it to Ukraine?
 
NMaude said:
What a criminal waste, I hope the idiots who ordered their destruction are now regretting their actions (There should consequences for them).
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It comes down to politics. If the Defence Budget is inadequate, does funding ongoing storage of retired missiles make sense?
 
NMaude said:
What a criminal waste, I hope the idiots who ordered their destruction are now regretting their actions (There should consequences for them).
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Hindsight is 20:20.

Remember that this happened before 2022. Rapier was severely obsolete and becoming unsustainable. It was also not very capable against the kinds of the threats the UK thought it was facing at the time. Storing it would have cost money and effort that they just didn't have. And Land Ceptor wa.scoming in and offered a far better capacity.
 
TomS said:
Remember that this happened before 2022. Rapier was severely obsolete and becoming unsustainable. It was also not very capable against the kinds of the threats the UK thought it was facing at the time. Storing it would have cost money and effort that they just didn't have. And Land Ceptor wa.scoming in and offered a far better capacity
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It seems to be the British constant mistake in last decades; decommission and scrap something to save money for replacement that isn't here yet & would only became available in th future.
 
Dilandu said:
It seems to be the British constant mistake in last decades; decommission and scrap something to save money for replacement that isn't here yet & would only became available in th future.
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I'd say that the bean-counters in HM's treasury are given far too much say and, yes, it is breathtakingly stupid AND shortsighted to dispose of a weapon system before its' proposed replacement has entered service.
 
NMaude said:
I'd say that the bean-counters in HM's treasury are given far too much say and, yes, it is breathtakingly stupid AND shortsighted to dispose of a weapon system before its' proposed replacement has entered service.
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Without that, new force levels will have to go even lower. Storage and maintenance isn't free.
 
NMaude said:
I'd say that the bean-counters in HM's treasury are given far too much say and, yes, it is breathtakingly stupid AND shortsighted to dispose of a weapon system before its' proposed replacement has entered service.
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Especially for RN, where ships and capabilities are routinely cut to save money for some future super-replacement that usually came late and/or in insufficient quantity.

P.S. On the other hand, knowing the British notorious history of cancellations WITHOUT backup option, it may be also the strategy to ensure that future replacement would at least not get cancelled.
 
Ainen said:
Without that, new force levels will have to go even lower. Storage and maintenance isn't free.
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Well, as practical experience demonstrated, storing old equipment IS a good investment. Because new equipment could rarely be produced fast in required quantities, and modern military actions are very demanding in terms of missile supply. A meager funds spend on storing "Rapier"'s would be a drop in an ocean comparing to the number of missles Britain NEED to order now)
 
NMaude said:
What I'm saying is that the system in question should NOT be retired until the replacement is ready and in LRIP phase.
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It shouldn't, and i don't think they didn't know that.
Problem is, when bean counters are one bean away in their choices - they have to choose.
Dilandu said:
Well, as practical experience demonstrated, storing old equipment IS a good investment. Because new equipment could rarely be produced fast in required quantities, and modern military actions are very demanding in terms of missile supply. A meager funds spend on storing "Rapier"'s would be a drop in an ocean comparing to the number of missles Britain NEED to order now)
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Sometimes it reminds me of myself in school, not really getting connection between montly expenses, travel and (not)getting fancy LEGOs. For some reason, being more annoying about getting lego didn't really work.

For country, being annoying certainly works better. But monthly expenses get cut.

Rapier wasn't seen as an important weapon right until the war - and only developments made during the war (alibaba drones, but really the very fact of long, attrition campaign) made the calculation change. Give any forum member 5 years ago a choice between storing rapiersfor a decade, or buying an additional T26 - i wooonder what people would've said.
Despite than T26 being about as useful for Ukrainian conflict, as my precious LEGO - for my studies.
 
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NMaude said:
I'd say that the bean-counters in HM's treasury are given far too much say
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That is what he UK electorate voted for in the past elections. As well as some other stuff which I will not go into.
 
Folks, even when emotions are making massive waves, please remember, that this is a technical theme in a technical forum.
So, please think twice before clicking the „Post reply“ button, especially when expressing your wishes, what should be done to some decision makers …
 
I repeat my previous 'That is what he UK electorate voted for in the past elections'.. People seemed to like budget cuts. Hard to betray people when you act on their wishes. Unless you think you know something they don't know. Or they don't want to know. Then you don't do their bidding, and don't get re-elected.
 
They would need to want to be properly educated. The popularity of the UK's gutter press tells me that could be a tall order.
Lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
 
Jemiba said:
Folks, even when emotions are making massive waves, please remember, that this is a technical theme in a technical forum.
So, please think twice before clicking the „Post reply“ button, especially when expressing your wishes, what should be done to some decision makers …
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As Scott Kenny didn't seem to take your advice, he will now sit out a 7 day ban. Deleted his offending posts.

I'm not sure why I need to say this (well, I guess this is the trajectory we seem to be on these days), but talking about killing people whose political actions you don't agree with always wrong.
 

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