FrankenSAM Project

[Archibald]

A detailed analysis of how Ukrainian Air Force could have shot down the Russian A-50 AEW&C aircraft over the Azov Sea

A detailed analysis of how Ukrainian Air Force could have shot down the Russian A-50 AEW&C aircraft over the Azov Sea

theaviationgeekclub.com

Do you think this scenario makes sense ? (SAMs are not my area of expertise, TBH)

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

It may also be possible that the A-50 was downed by using a modified version of Patriot or S-300 then. I remember seeing a tweet which supposedly quoted a high ranking Ukrainian Airforce official who said that "locally made technology" was "responsible for the downing". What that's supposed to mean is anyone's guess and I have not seen any evidence to confirm or deny these claims; the Ukrainians remain tight lipped and the Russians don't really wish to comment it seems.

Except that PAC-2 does not have an active seeker. It's semi-active with TVM, so the Patriot battery radar HAS to go active in the endgame or the missile can't guide. And it probably has to send periodic updates or the missile is going to be dumb. But if Patriot is only using the comms built into the radar and not an actual tracking signal until late, it potentially doesn't look like a Patriot engagement on ESM until it's too late to do anything about it.

I wonder whether it's possible that the Ukrainians could have fired a Patriot in the general direction of the A-50 before illuminating it in the final phase of its flight and getting it near enough to destroy it. It's a long shot, but theoretically it seems possible. Whether it could be done in practice is entirely different altogether.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I also find it rather interesting that we have yet to see any of these FrankenSAMs made public, as it seems that their usage is going to become a lot more common as Soviet missile stocks in Ukraine dwindle. It's interesting that we are yet to see any Kubs rolling around with Sparrows or trucks with modified Sidewinder launchers.

 

[TomS]

I also find it rather interesting that we have yet to see any of these FrankenSAMs made public, as it seems that their usage is going to become a lot more common as Soviet missile stocks in Ukraine dwindle. It's interesting that we are yet to see any Kubs rolling around with Sparrows or trucks with modified Sidewinder launchers.

Ukraine has excellent OPSEC when it comes to this sort of equipment. Possibly aided by this gear not being as widespread as they would like the Russians to think.

 

[Firefinder]

Needs to be noted that the Patriot does have the ability to fire a missile preloaded with guidence data much like the Aegis does.

Even for the TVM mode it does not need to guided it the entire way. It does not need constant guidance updates.

Just the terminals approach.

So if tge Russian pulled what the USAF did in the 90s with flying in a regular course?

Fire the missile, wait a moment for it, and just flash the planes once you think its in the basket.

All the matter of timing it probably.

And its simple US high school math.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Needs to be noted that the Patriot does have the ability to fire a missile preloaded with guidence data much like the Aegis does.

Even for the TVM mode it does not need to guided it the entire way. It does not need constant guidance updates.

Just the terminals approach.

So if tge Russian pulled what the USAF did in the 90s with flying in a regular course?

Fire the missile, wait a moment for it, and just flash the planes once you think its in the basket.

All the matter of timing it probably.

And its simple US high school math.

Hell, it's probably a built in fire mode on the Patriots already, just not one with a lot of use normally.

 

[NMaude]

I just stumbled across this YT video showing daylight footage of the ground-launched ASRAAM in Ukraine:

Earlier this week, 8 February, the first clear footage of the UK developed and supplied AIM-132 ASRAAM-based air defence system appeared. In this video we take a look at the system and the available evidence of its use.

Be sure to check out our accompanying article for this video here - https://armourersbench.com/2024/02/09...

 

[timmymagic]

Cross posted to the Asraam/CAMM thread.

Can't link it here. But unfortunately one of the UK supplied HMT/Asraam Frankensam systems has been hit and destroyed in Donetsk by a Russian Lancet. Definitely not a dummy system either. System was parked up with a damaged tyre and, given the time delay between detection and lancet strike (position of sun and shadows in the video) is likely to not have been manned at the time.

 

[timmymagic]

Another Frankensam lost...including our first look at a Ukrainian Buk with RIM-7 mounted. Lost to a Lancet strike.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1788981117053202772

View: https://twitter.com/StettingerN/status/1788981117053202772

 

[NMaude]

Another Frankensam lost...including our first look at a Ukrainian Buk with RIM-7 mounted. Lost to a Lancet strike.

A pity however I do believe that the Ukrainian army has plenty of SA-11 TELs to be modified into firing RIM-7s also something really needs to be done about shooting down these Lancet drones.

Talking about Ukrainian FrankenSAMs here's this interesting Defense Updates video about a Magura sea-drone being modified to carry an AA-11 Archer AAM as a SAM:

New footage published by Russian state news agency Tass suggests that Ukraine's military has adapted its naval drones to carry air-to-air missiles.

Tass and Russia's Defense Ministry released footage on May 6 showing a Russian Ka-29 helicopter firing at a Ukrainian Magura V5 naval drone that seemed to be armed with R-73. The incident took place in the Black Sea.

A video taken from the Ka-29 reveals a single R-73 on one of two angled rails mounted on the rear of the USV (Unmanned Surface Vessel), potentially indicating that the other weapon has already been fired.

The USV tried to escape with some hard maneuvers but was eventually destroyed by gunfire from Ka-29.

Viewers may note that Ukraine has used its Magura V5 on multiple occasions to target Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

In this video, Defense Updates reports on R-73 missile integration to Magura V5 USV

.#defenseupdates #ukrainevsrussia #ukrainerussiawar

Chapters:

00:11 INTRODUCTION

02:06 THE GLIMPSE

03:30 MAGURA V5

05:30 R-73 AAM

06:58 ANALYSIS

 

[timmymagic]

It's worth noting that a Russian MI-24 on anti-USV patrol off Crimea was lost in recent weeks in unclear circumstances. There is speculation that it may have fallen foul to a FrankenSAM USV...

 

[Scott Kenny]

Cross posted to the Asraam/CAMM thread.

Can't link it here. But unfortunately one of the UK supplied HMT/Asraam Frankensam systems has been hit and destroyed in Donetsk by a Russian Lancet. Definitely not a dummy system either. System was parked up with a damaged tyre and, given the time delay between detection and lancet strike (position of sun and shadows in the video) is likely to not have been manned at the time.

The only irreplaceable part of that package is the FLIR box, so hopefully that's not broken beyond repair.

 

[timmymagic]

The only irreplaceable part of that package is the FLIR box, so hopefully that's not broken beyond repair.

Actually there are a few spare from the Talisman programme. It's likely the HMT600 is the rarest item as there were only 6 built for Soothsayer.Mind you Supacat are still building variants so they couldsource new. But realistically its probably not worth it. There are only so many Asraam Block V and earlier going spare (unless Australia chuck their stockpile over the fence) and a decent number have been fired. The remaining Supacat Asraam Frankensam's just have slightly more missiles per launcher now.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Actually there are a few spare from the Talisman programme. It's likely the HMT600 is the rarest item as there were only 6 built for Soothsayer.Mind you Supacat are still building variants so they couldsource new. But realistically its probably not worth it. There are only so many Asraam Block V and earlier going spare (unless Australia chuck their stockpile over the fence) and a decent number have been fired. The remaining Supacat Asraam Frankensam's just have slightly more missiles per launcher now.

I was more thinking that it didn't have to be mounted on a Supacat specifically, it's just that the UK had those spare/surplus. The FrankenSAM launchers could be mounted on pretty much any tracked vehicle, truck, or even a trailer; though an off-road truck like the Supacat is one of the best options.

 

[timmymagic]

I was more thinking that it didn't have to be mounted on a Supacat specifically, it's just that the UK had those spare/surplus. The FrankenSAM launchers could be mounted on pretty much any tracked vehicle, truck, or even a trailer; though an off-road truck like the Supacat is one of the best options.

Absolutely, it would probably be as easy to add it to a MAN HX or any other truck.

 

[publiusr]

With drones and Starlink, I'd think a FrankenSAM would not have to have as much added.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Not sure if this falls under the FrankenSAM program, but the Ukrainians recently mounted R-73s on their SA-8 Geckos

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791837511976714284

View: https://vxtwitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1791837511976714284

 

[NMaude]

Not sure if this falls under the FrankenSAM program, but the Ukrainians recently mounted R-73s on their SA-8 Geckos

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791837511976714284

View: https://vxtwitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1791837511976714284

The Ukrainians have also recently been mounting launch-rails on some of their Magura sea-drones to fire the AA-11 Archer AAMs, also I understand something similar has been done with surplus AA-8 Aphids.

 

[timmymagic]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795208121146548526

View: https://twitter.com/John_A_Ridge/status/1795208121146548526?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

 

[GTX]

Leaked Photos Unveil FrankenSAM Defense System in Ukraine’s Defense Ar

Leaked Photos Unveil FrankenSAM Defense System in Ukraine’s Defense Arsenal

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[TinWing]

Leaked Photos Unveil FrankenSAM Defense System in Ukraine’s Defense Ar

Leaked Photos Unveil FrankenSAM Defense System in Ukraine’s Defense Arsenal

www.armyrecognition.com

I’m not sure why they’re obscuring the actual Sparrow missiles themselves, other than the fact that they’re obviously much smaller than the original 9M317 missiles, which are similar in size and configuration to a SM-1 Standard.

The elephant in the room is a presumably shorter engagement range.

 

[TomS]

I’m not sure why they’re obscuring the actual Sparrow missiles themselves,

It's camouflage netting, because they're in the field and would like to not be spotted and bombed/droned/etc.

 

[NMaude]

Defense Updates has just uploaded a video concerning Ukraine's FrankenSams:

German arms manufacturer, Rheinmetall will deliver a new Frankenstein air defense tank to Ukraine.The Frankenstein air defense tank consists of an advanced German Skyranger anti-aircraft gun mounted on a Leopard 1 battle tank.

Bjorn Bernhard, the head of land systems at Rheinmetall, said in an interview with the German tabloid Bild,"There are still many Leopard 1 main battle tanks on whose chassis we could mount the Skyranger turret with the 35 mm caliber automatic cannon,"

In this video, Defense Updates analyzes how the Frankenstein air defense tank could help Ukraine defend its skies ?

#defenseupdates # FrankensteinAirDefenseTank #ukrainerussiawar

Chapters:
00:11 INTRODUCTION
01:39 BACKGROUND
03:12 SKYRANGER OVERVIEW
04:10 CONFIGURATION
07:11 ANALYSIS

This sounds promising and is a good reuse IMO of Leopard 1 MBT chassis.

 

[MihoshiK]

Defense Updates has just uploaded a video concerning Ukraine's FrankenSams:

This sounds promising and is a good reuse IMO of Leopard 1 MBT chassis.

Basically a modern Gepard system. Nice.

 

[NMaude]

Basically a modern Gepard system. Nice.

The Gepard, along with the APKWS, seem to be the perfect tools for blowing away Shahed drones.

 

[NMaude]

After watching this video it occurred to me that this particular weapon-system would be excellent for terminating Xenomorphs.

 

[NMaude]

It would appear that the US DoD is taking a serious interest in FrankenSAMs:

Ukraine's innovative FrankenSAM system, cobbled together from global air defense components, has proven so effective on the battlefield that the US Senate Armed Services Committee is considering it for air base defense. In this video, I break down how this Frankenstein-like air defense system was born, why it’s so effective, and how it’s changing the future of US military strategy.

From downing advanced Russian missiles to integrating AIM-9 Sidewinders into an ad-hoc system, the FrankenSAM's success in Ukraine is undeniable. Now, the Pentagon is eyeing it for broader use, potentially transforming air base defense, expeditionary operations, and more

.Learn how Ukraine’s lessons are reshaping US defense policy—and why FrankenSAM might be the key to defending against next-gen threats.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Honestly, a mix of NASAMS with AIM120s on the rails and some AIM9Xs is pretty good for defending most USAF bases.

It's the US Army that needs a much fancier setup.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Honestly, a mix of NASAMS with AIM120s on the rails and some AIM9Xs is pretty good for defending most USAF bases.

It's the US Army that needs a much fancier setup.

Could be a good option for the reimplementation of SAM sites stateside too

 

[TomS]

Honestly, a mix of NASAMS with AIM120s on the rails and some AIM9Xs is pretty good for defending most USAF bases.

It's the US Army that needs a much fancier setup.

I think the main aspect of FrankenSAM that appeals to SASC and DoD is the sensor-agnostic nature of the launchers. They seem to have come up with a very straightforward approach to middleware that lets any available sensor provide data to whatever missile/launcher combo you have on hand. Basically a local air defense equivalent of IBCS for ballistic missile defense.

 

[TinWing]

Honestly, a mix of NASAMS with AIM120s on the rails and some AIM9Xs is pretty good for defending most USAF bases.

It's the US Army that needs a much fancier setup.

I’d argue that largely US funded Israeli air defense systems offer a better blueprint than an ad hoc lashup. I have nothing against the USAF use existing air-to-air missiles from surface launchers to defend an airbase, although the organizational and jurisdictional issues are quite obvious. Had the USAF operated SAMs since BOMARC? Isn’t that the Army’s role?

“Frankensam” systems are fine for a 3rd party proxy conflict, but the real need is for an integrated multi-system air defense. Every thing from low end C-UAV to C-RAM and up to ABM is necessary. Truth be known, Iron Dome represents a base line capability for any deployment. It gets expensive lobbing AIM-9X and AMRAAMs at targets that are best resolved with Tamir interceptors that are 1/20 to 1/50 the price.

So maybe the Air Force needs dedicated ground based air defense units or to coordinate with the Army? Either way, we’ve already paid to develop the appropriate systems with Israel.

 

[TinWing]

Could be a good option for the reimplementation of SAM sites stateside too

You only need SAM sites in the lower 48 in the event of WWIII, and quite frankly, intercepting cruise missiles will be a low priority during a full on strategic exchange. Game over for humanity.

As far as “Skyfall” cruise missile as a threat, that’s right up there with the giant Poseidon torpedo menace. Not terrible credible as a primary deterrent.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I’d argue that largely US funded Israeli air defense systems offer a better blueprint than an ad hoc lashup. I have nothing against the USAF use existing air-to-air missiles from surface launchers to defend an airbase, although the organizational and jurisdictional issues are quite obvious. Had the USAF operated SAMs since BOMARC? Isn’t that the Army’s role?

“Frankensam” systems are fine for a 3rd party proxy conflict, but the real need is for an integrated multi-system air defense. Every thing from low end C-UAV to C-RAM and up to ABM is necessary. Truth be known, Iron Dome represents a base line capability for any deployment. It gets expensive lobbing AIM-9X and AMRAAMs at targets that are best resolved with Tamir interceptors that are 1/20 to 1/50 the price.

So maybe the Air Force needs dedicated ground based air defense units or to coordinate with the Army? Either way, we’ve already paid to develop the appropriate systems with Israel.

The US Army demands a system that can talk to ICBS (or whatever that acronym is). The system that also deals with Patriot, THAAD, artillery calls for fire, and the Typhon launchers.

NASAMS is good for the USAF because it has its own fire control system and most importantly uses existing USAF missiles (AMRAAM and AIM9X).

 

[MadRat]

Did he say AIM-9 Sparrow? Lol

 

[NMaude]

Did he say AIM-9 Sparrow? Lol

Maybe he was thinking of NOTS Sparrowinder.

 

[timmymagic]

You only need SAM sites in the lower 48 in the event of WWIII

Would have thought Elmendorf and Eielson in Alaska....would require some defences at the very least....along with some of the radar stations.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Would have thought Elmendorf and Eielson in Alaska....would require some defences at the very least....along with some of the radar stations.

Yes, but Alaska isn't part of the Lower 48.

Lower 48 is the big block of the US. Alaska and Hawaii are considered separate from the Lower 48 or "CONUS", the Continental US.

So the bases in Alaska and Hawaii will need defenses. Hawaii has the Aegis Ashore test base, Alaska has GBI etc but needs regular defenses as well.

 

[Firefinder]

Both Alaska and Hawaii, plus Guam.

Have a a Battalion or 3 of Patriot missiles, with a Battery on standbye at all times for just that reason.

Not to mention at any given time Hawaii has a Aegis Destroyer circling it and a Flight of F22 showing off.

 

[timmymagic]

New one today...Project Gravehawk, a UK built system...

Joint UK and Denmark funded, tested in Ukraine in September with 2 units, 15 more on way this year...

UK Gov Announcement

Gravehawk, a UK designed air defence system, has been rapidly developed to meet Ukrainian needs on the battlefield. The project has been jointly funded by the UK and Denmark.

The innovative system, which is the size of a shipping container, is able to retrofit air-air missiles for ground-based air defence, meaning it can use Ukrainian missiles already in their Armed Forces’ possession.

With Ukraine under constant Russian bombardment, the Gravehawk system will boost Ukraine’s air defences, allowing them to defend their cities, troops and critical infrastructure.

Two prototypes of the air defence capability system were tested in Ukraine in September, and a further 15 will follow this year.

£4.5 billion military boost to Ukraine front line to support UK growth and jobs

UK’s steadfast support for Ukraine delivers on this Government’s Plan for Change, supporting UK security and growth.

www.gov.uk

Any ideas?

My initial thoughts are that if we're talking about missiles in Ukrainian possession that implies ex-Soviet stock. I would have thought R-73 was most in demand for the limited amount of air to air sorties against cruise missiles and Shahed, and for other applications such as in use on FrankenSAM SA-8 launchers and USV's in the Black Sea.

So....could this be re-use of AA-10 (Vympel R-27)? The Houthi's have re-used as a SAM...and there could be reasonable stocks out there for re-use, supply from ex-Warpac states and on the arms market...

Can't imagine there are any/many AA-8 Aphid or AA-7 Apex still in stock...(although AA-8 has apparently been used on Sea Baby and SU-25).

 

[_Del_]

So maybe the Air Force needs dedicated ground based air defense units or to coordinate with the Army?

Air defense is one of the cogs they are exploring as part of ACE. It still sees that as an Army responsibility under a joint force (under USAF command). Easy to see why there might be some assumptions that need ironing out on either side of such an arrangement, but I haven't seen much in the way of AF interest in actually operating SAMS or the IBCS.