France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

[TomcatViP]

You are confusing the impact of thrust at launch with that of lift.
If you don't have enough thrust at launch, you add lift, increasing wing surface or augmenting the lift force by flaps, LEF, angle of attack etc...
On the contrary, a fighter jet designed with performance in mind will be limited first by the thrust available in dynamic conditions (Flight maneuver, Acceleration, altitude... ). There the impact of lift augmentation devices being drastically diminished by the g number (divided by two, three... 9 in a matter of seconds). Thrust becoming the lead parameters.
Carrier launch and arresting design are only a fraction of the limitation an aircraft must meet. See how Naval fighters happens to outperform their land based rivals from time to time.

Then there is the cost. French MoD has certainly a good projection of Dassault aircraft cost by weight. Even factoring-in the impact of the diminishing parts count, they are probably able to make good projection of the maintenance cost.
And we all know that's not the good aspect of Dassault and Airbus designs. Hence see this reported limitation as a fairly prudent requirement to keep the project alive and perform.

Also, being rational, 16t is 60% higher than Rafale empty weight. It seems compatible with what we are given to see.

 

[H_K]

You are confusing the impact of thrust at launch with that of lift.

Nope. The catapult provides most of the thrust... that’s the whole point otherwise people would just use ski jumps.

The aircraft provides the lift, and only needs to provide enough thrust to continue accelerating once in the air… which for a fighter is never an issue.

 

[Scott Kenny]

First 16t is Metric tons (35t Imperial).

Nope.

Metric tonnes are 1000kg, 2204lbs. Imperial (short) tonnes are 2000lbs.
Only a 10% difference.

 

[TomcatViP]

@Scott Kenny: see here

@H_K : you might want to have another look at my own words as really stated as your remark doesn't make sense.

 

[Scott Kenny]

@Scott Kenny: see here

@H_K : you might want to have another look at my own words as really stated as your remark doesn't make sense.

An Imperial Long ton is 2240 lbs. 1016kg.

 

[Arjen]

45t at 130 knots translates to 35t at 147kts (simple energy conversion formula E=MC2).

E=MC² is the formula for complete conversion of mass to energy, with C the speed of light.
The formula for the energy needed E to accelerate a mass M to a speed V would be E=½MV².
The speed for mass results are the same for that catapult, though

 

[dark sidius]

This program will never go nowhere

 

[Forest Green]

E=MC² is the formula for complete conversion of mass to energy, with C the speed of light.

Only if the mass is at rest. The full equation is:

E²=(MC²)² + (pc)² where p = momentum.

 

[MihoshiK]

Only if the mass is at rest. The full equation is:

E²=(MC²)² + (pc)² where p = momentum.

Since planes are not made out of equal parts matter and antimatter that doesn't really matter either way.

 

[Arjen]

Theoretically correct, though. At the fraction of light speed we are currently able to reach with most anything heavier than elementary and composite particles - with great big accelerators - in nearly all cases the difference is negligible between matter at rest and matter in motion.

 

[Reaper]

For everyone like me who lost track of the backstory:

View: https://youtu.be/TTjdEtHYDJ4?t=1911

 

[eagle]

That still leaves plenty of room to build something bigger than an F-35.

F-35A is 13t, was supposed to be under 12t, and that’s with some of the weight penalties of needing a STOVL variant.

The F-35C is almost 16 t though. And that is without a second engine, and its weapon bays are likely too small for what the French and/or Germans want to carry internally.
So definitely a constraint if you ask me.

 

[Ainen]

Very interresting article which also comes to FCAS. Some things i noticed:
- there ain't done on the industrial side with some problems between the companys but less on the political side
- there uncertain about what armament (when that is the easy part)
- french are looking for an empty weight of 16t (but couldnt they accept more with pang?)
https://www.hartpunkt.de/bundeswehr...lugzeuge-vor-einfuehrung-von-fcas-beschaffen/

While most stuff is nothing new those 16t empty weight does sound limiting. Do they plan / assume that they may have to use it on charles de gaulle?

Or simply separate CTOL and CATOBAR?

 

[H_K]

The F-35C is almost 16 t though. And that is without a second engine, and its weapon bays are likely too small for what the French and/or Germans want to carry internally.
So definitely a constraint if you ask me.

Hard to tell... F-35 was a very compromised design due to STOVL requirements, so probably far from optimal.

Perhaps a better starting point for a comparison would be the YF-23, which also weighed ~13t empty. The navalized NATF-23 wasn't any bigger than the YF-23, though it required a substantial configuration change (canards + traditional twin tail instead of Pelican tail). I suspect that the Franco-German Levcon studies for NGF have this naval constraint in mind, with the Levcons doing the same work as canards to increase lift and reduce take-off/approach speeds (in addition to enabling a very structurally-efficient, high-volume triple delta wing, which would help to reduce empty weight).

 

[TomcatViP]

A very favorable dawn is profiling on the horizon:

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/04/europe-looks-to-mobilize-840-billion-in-defense-spending-boost-eu-commission-head-says.html

Let's hope that the teams in charge take this opportunity on a responsable way, avoiding the waste and mismanagement that the Green EU fund ended to be known.

 

[eagle]

Hard to tell... F-35 was a very compromised design due to STOVL requirements, so probably far from optimal.

True but that mostly resulted in aerodynamic compromises rather than structural I'd say. The F-35 even went on a substantial diet to meet STOVL weight requirements.
OK, I guess a twin engined design with a larger central weapon bay instead of two smaller ones could save some weight.

Perhaps a better starting point for a comparison would be the YF-23, which also weighed ~13t empty.

That is without engines. 2 F119 engines add about 5 t. See the F-22: contractor weight i.e. empty without engines about 14.7 t, with engines 19.7 t

 

[TomcatViP]

Trappier says he sees no issue with more than one programme either. “Europe is a big continent. If you have two programmes, why not?”

Dassault’s Trappier pours cold water on prospects of FCAS and GCAP merger

Hopes that Europe's two future fighter programmes could move closer together appear unlikely to be realised, with Dassault Aviation's chief executive distancing his firm from any such proposal.

www.flightglobal.com

Dassault CEO just got a Boulevard to move forward with FCAS his own way. The recent defense budgets unexpected transmutation (red-hulk way, some would say) should not leave him hesitant.
What people could question however, is the relevancy of pushing a Rafale F5 extensive upgrade when French Nuke are now openly discussed as a transnational asset and in regard to the sense of urgency.

The F5 upgrade has been primarily a National program. I think then FCAS could get the way Rafale went 30+ years ago: FCAS F1 (for interdiction and nuclear strike) and then the rest.

 

[MihoshiK]

Dassault’s Trappier pours cold water on prospects of FCAS and GCAP merger

Hopes that Europe's two future fighter programmes could move closer together appear unlikely to be realised, with Dassault Aviation's chief executive distancing his firm from any such proposal.

www.flightglobal.com

Dassault CEO just got a Boulevard to move forward with FCAS his own way. The recent defense budgets unexpected transmutation (red-hulk way, some would say) should not leave him hesitant.
What people could question however, is the relevancy of pushing a Rafale F5 extensive upgrade when French Nuke are now openly discussed as a transnational asset and in regard to the sense of urgency.

The F5 upgrade has been primarily a National program. I think then FCAS could get the way Rafale went 30+ years ago: FCAS F1 (for interdiction and nuclear strike) and then the rest.

This fucking timeline. A year ago I was telling my coworkers that I'd lived through the tail end of one cold war, I was not happy to be in a second one, especially as I'm living in the blast radius of a likely nuclear strike due to proximity to a large railway yard.
And now we're talking about being under France's nuclear umbrella.

God. Fucking. Damnit.