Flaming Pumpkin Seeds

[Steve Pace]

Here are the two F-93s after their lease to NASA.

Aircraft #2 still has the NACA inlets, while #1 has already been fitted with pitot intakes.
I think both ended up being thus modified.

Can you send me high res copies of these?

 

[The Artist]

It all started with the article

Secret Advanced Vehicle Demonstrates Technologies For Further Military Use

In AW&ST 1-OCT-1990

I found this on a tear sheet from an old issue of Air Force Magazine - it was in yet another article on advanced technologies. It does not look like a flamer but the shape reminds me of the design in coach46's posting.

Mike

 

[Grey Havoc]

A recent AOARD (AFRL) sponsored study into Lightcraft that may be of interest: Investigation of Innovative Lightcraft Designs for Hypersonic Air Breathing and Rocket Flight by Beamed Energy Propulsion

 

[Grey Havoc]

Some info on HEDI: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a210006.pdf

 

[Vulcan652]

"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out" - Richard Dawkins

What do you find unacceptable in the idea that its an F-117?

Nose/canopy/forebody lines are off. The canopy is set further back from the nose than an F-117 would be and the nose is more horizontal.

To me it looks kind of like an F-16 with its tail off. Not sure what a redundant F-16 would be doing out at Helendale though...

 

[quellish]

To me it looks kind of like an F-16 with its tail off. Not sure what a redundant F-16 would be doing out at Helendale though...

In Google Earth images you can see a number of different things over the years at Helendale. The F-117, an F-16, the F-22 tail section, and some other things. If you actually go out and visit you can sometimes see something interesting.
The F-117 model was a resident for quite some time and stored outdoors and in view. Somewhere I have an account of it's story (IIRC this was not the VTOL F-117, but its successor). The F-16 was the same F-16 seen around Palmdale with the DSI inlet, LOAN nozzle and CFTs. I now have the story of that aircraft and have been up close and personal with it. It was used for a number of different tests at Helendale over the years.

 

[Vulcan652]

To me it looks kind of like an F-16 with its tail off. Not sure what a redundant F-16 would be doing out at Helendale though...

In Google Earth images you can see a number of different things over the years at Helendale. The F-117, an F-16, the F-22 tail section, and some other things. If you actually go out and visit you can sometimes see something interesting.
The F-117 model was a resident for quite some time and stored outdoors and in view. Somewhere I have an account of it's story (IIRC this was not the VTOL F-117, but its successor). The F-16 was the same F-16 seen around Palmdale with the DSI inlet, LOAN nozzle and CFTs. I now have the story of that aircraft and have been up close and personal with it. It was used for a number of different tests at Helendale over the years.

Thanks for the info, quellish, that's fascinating. I've just looked up that F-16 with the blended intake, an impressive looking machine and sounds like it performed well! I assume this isn't the same aircraft pictured in the grainy image (if indeed that jet is an F-16)? The model in the image reminds me a bit of the drawing in the Boeing Model-24F design, although that's probably rather fanciful! I'll jump on Google Earth in the am and see what I can find in the archives shots of Helendale.

 

[sferrin]

The F-16 was the same F-16 seen around Palmdale with the DSI inlet, LOAN nozzle and CFTs. I now have the story of that aircraft and have been up close and personal with it. It was used for a number of different tests at Helendale over the years.

anything you can talk about?

 

[quellish]

anything you can talk about?

Yes, it's black now.

It's a non flying test article built from two written off F-16 airframes. It was owned by LM, then (gasp!) was in private hands for a while, and now is switching hands again. You will notice it has no landing gear. Once landing gear are found it will be restored and put on display at John Davies Heritage Airpark, which is managed by the city of Palmdale and is adjacent to but not associated with Blackbird Airpark.
There is more to the story, but...

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19901001/13/2

 

[sferrin]

Already a thread for that somewhere. (I'd look in the "Flaming Pumpkin Seeds thread".)

 

[Moose]

Are you sure it's not Bowie's guitar pick? (RIP)

 

[quellish]

Where the "Flaming Pumpkin Seed" legend started:

Aviation Week — December 24 1990

Explore the full December 24 1990 issue of Aviation Week. Browse featured articles, preview selected issue contents, and more.

archive.aviationweek.com

 

[royabulgaf]

Ironically, I saw Flaming Pumpkin Seeds open for David Bowie in1985. ;D

 

[flateric]

There possibly seems to be some similarities.

Which ones exactly between silently hovering something and rushing through skies hypersonic vehicle powered by external burning scramjet?

 

[Hydroman]

Project Bowie.

 

[publiusr]

A "possible flaming pumpkinseed" ???

Vulture

That's a camera shutter

This is why I keep going on about SLS perhaps one day evolving to become side-mount like Energiya. A pumpkinseed could be mounted with its dorsal surface mounted against the HLLV and new shields on its ventral. This way it can test shields and see if external combustion works at big scales.

On shrouds and boat/tails

AIAA Aerospace Research Central

 

[Orionblamblam]

This is why I keep going on about SLS perhaps one day evolving to become side-mount like Energiya. A pumpkinseed could be mounted with its dorsal surface mounted against the HLLV and new shields on its ventral. This way it can test shields and see if external combustion works at big scales.

Or, better still: retire SLS and build these "shields" subscale and launch them on *cheap* rockets. You know, like sane people would.

 

[publiusr]

I don't think Musk wants side-mount. Let him do his thing--and MAF theirs.

I don't remember anything other than Arrival where we saw a lozenge shaped craft on screen.

 

[X-39]

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

 

[bob225]

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markmccandlish.com

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

does picture 4 remind anyone else of "the Calvine UFO"?

Roughly right dates......

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/diamond-shaped-calvine-ufo-alleged-us-navy-usaf-black-project.39907/

 

[quellish]

Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

I don't see anything that could be SENIOR CITIZEN, but I do see SENIOR PEG. And 3 weird little VTOL things.
The linked article talks quite a bit about flying saucers being present though.

 

[RanulfC]

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

Er, IIRC wasn't it found that the "NACA flush/trap-door-inlets" didn't in fact work at any speed? They were extensively tested in the late 40s and early 50s and found to be subject to stall under almost any conditions including straight and level flight.

Randy

 

[Hansblix]

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

Er, IIRC wasn't it found that the "NACA flush/trap-door-inlets" didn't in fact work at any speed? They were extensively tested in the late 40s and early 50s and found to be subject to stall under almost any conditions including straight and level flight.

Randy

I also thought a pumpkin seed design was found to perform horribly.

 

[RanulfC]

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

Er, IIRC wasn't it found that the "NACA flush/trap-door-inlets" didn't in fact work at any speed? They were extensively tested in the late 40s and early 50s and found to be subject to stall under almost any conditions including straight and level flight.

Randy

I also thought a pumpkin seed design was found to perform horribly.

"Adequate flight characteristics and promising performance" and from what I can remember from the book it wasn't horrible for the flight envelope it was designed to meet. The form has some possible hypersonic applications but as noted here the exact design details are critical and what works at very high speed is not likely to work well at low speed and vice versa.

Randy

 

[publiusr]

Randy

I also thought a pumpkin seed design was found to perform horribly.

Never stopped the Phantom…no seriously…maybe you could splice this with some OTV designs, and do like the Great Daylight Fireball and get air samples from Jupiter.

Scoop and skip.

 

[flateric]

And 3 weird little VTOL things.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/super-stol-aircraft.31469/

Of course, this was the show stopper compared to others in hangar lol. But then new memories began to materialize...

 

[greenmartian2017]

OK. I read this entire thread, and even a substantial swath of the links. The McCandlish related story (which includes apparently an alleged additional hangar visit with "fluxliner" craft on the same day) has never been repeated as far as any stories I have read since. I have not seen any other stories (other than this one as featured on https://numendil.ch/numenpub/cosmic-disclosure/s7e20/) that even relate to what this person told McCandlish. And I have carefully looked at a dozen different lists of "UFO shapes" (1940s through 1990s) and the "fluxliner" does not appear on any of them. No exact match. What does this tell us? Probably that the story will never be corroborated. And that McCandlish knew how to draw some very nifty aerospace vehicles. Also, McCandlish can't be contacted to ask any follow-up questions--he passed in April 2021.

 

[Prophet141]

How does external burning work? Is it somewhat similar in operation to an aerospike nozzle?

 

[Scott Kenny]

How does external burning work? Is it somewhat similar in operation to an aerospike nozzle?

That's how I understand it. The Popular Mechanics drawings of the craft used a shockwave off the widest part of the pumpkin seed as one side of the thrust nozzle, and the aft end of the airframe as the other side of the thrust nozzle.

 

[flateric]

How does external burning work? Is it somewhat similar in operation to an aerospike nozzle?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/external-combustion-engine.15444/

 

[flateric]

Post in thread 'US Lifting Bodies Studies - START (ASSET/PRIME), FDL, X-24, etc.' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...tart-asset-prime-fdl-x-24-etc.722/post-114778

 

[flateric]

...

 

[quellish]

Attached these images of the "Pulser" seen by McCandlish in 1989. Interesting, there is also Senior Citizen present and the one on the left I've seen it somewhere.

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

numendil.ch

The original site went offline shortly after @X-39 posted the link, it is available through archive.org though:

numenpub

Nuxt.js project

web.archive.org

 

[Deleted member 4286]

Captures from Discovery Channel's The Black Aircraft documentary

CHRIS GIBSON'S AURORA SIGHTING
By Simon Gray

In August 1989, Chris Gibson, a Scottish oil-exploration engineer and, at the time, a member of the British Royal Observer Corps (ROC), was working on the oil rig Galveston Key in the North Sea when he noticed an aircraft in the shape of a pure isoceles triangle refuelling from a KC-135 Stratotanker alongside two F-111s.

The unknown aircraft, cruising in a formation northward through Air-to-Air Refuelling Area (AARA) 6A, is what people have come to believe, is the mysterious Aurora hypersonic spyplane. Another possible aircraft, which could have been seen over the North Sea however, is Northrop's A-17 stealth attack plane.

Chris Gibson's observation of the mysterious flying triangle is often cited by UFO researchers when the subject of Aurora rises. Below, Chris Gibson explains precisely what happened, as well as giving an insight into himself.

I welcome any questions on my North Sea sighting, as I am of the opinion that too much is taken at face value in the black aircraft snark hunt. I think that the snark hunt has degenerated into an exercise in regurgitating the same old stories with little or no new research being done.

A bit about me. I work as a drilling technologist for a major oil field service company. I hold an Honours degree in geology, with some engineering, geophysics and chemistry thrown in. I also did a post graduate course in systems analysis, I was a member of the Royal Observers Corps for 13 years and was a member of the ROC's aicraft recognition team for 12 of those years. In this field I was considered to be an expert and produced an aircraft recognition manual for the ROC. Some will obviously know the sighting story, but I'll fill you in on what happened from my point of view.

I was working in the indefatigable field on the jack-up rig 'Galvestion Key' in August 1989. My colleague, Graeme Winton, went out on deck but returned immediately. He told me to "have a look at this." We went outside and Graeme pointed skywards.

I had been at university with Graeme and he knew of my interest in aircraft. As far as Graeme was concerned it was a formation of aircraft and he reckoned I'd be interested. I looked up, saw the tanker and the F-111s, but was amazed to see the triangle. I am trained in instant recognition, but this triangle had me stopped dead. My first thought was that it was another F-111, but there was no 'gaps', it was too long and it didn't look like one.

My next thought was that it was an F-117, as the highly swept planform of the F-117 had just been made public. Again the triangle was too long and had no gaps. After considering and rejecting a Mirage IV, I was totally out of ideas. Here was an aircraft, flying over head, not too high and not particularly fast. A recognition gift and I was clueless. This was a new experience. Graeme asked me what was going on. I watched as the formation flew overhead and told him that the big one was a KC-135 Stratotanker, the two on the left were F-111s and that I didn't know what the fourth aircraft was.

Graeme said "I though you were an expert?" I said "I am." To which Graeme replied "Some expert."

It was obvious to me that this aircraft was something 'dodgy'. I watched the formation for a minute or two and went back inside with Graeme. At the time I was writing the aircraft recognition manual and had a Danish Luftmelderkorpset Flykendingsbog in my briefcase. This is probably the best aircraft recognition book ever produced. I looked through it, but nothing matched. I then sketched what I had seen and sent this to Peter Edwards, who was a Group Officer in the ROC and was also on the recognition team.

We discussed what to do about it but decided that if it was reported through official channels, it would be at best rubbished, at worst lead to trouble. Having signed the Official Secrets Act I didn't want to jeopardise my position in the recognition team, so I kept my mouth shut. I told other members of the recognition team in the hope that they could shed some light on the subject. On returning home I had a look through my book collection. The only aircraft which came close to matching what I had seen was a Handley Page HP115. It was not one of them. Whether this aircraft was a Aurora is debatable - my background precludes jumping to conclusions based on a single piece of evidence. I wrote to Bill Sweetman (Stealth expert) after being sent an illustration from Janes Defense Weekly which matched what I had seen.

As an aside, I wrote to two other writers who did not reply. Bill reckons it was Aurora; Agenct 'X' reckons it was the FB-119. I don't know what it was. It is the only aircraft I have ever seen that I could not identify. Pete Edwards told Bill Sweetman that if I didn't know what this aircraft was, it isn't in any book. I've been hunting this 'snark' for almost 9 years now and have turned up some interesting stuff, mainly through my own efforts, but also by having looked in the most unusual places. Talking to the people involved is a necessity.

As I said before, I welcome the healthy scepticism, but at least give me the opportunity to state my case.


from "Chris Gibson's Aurora Sighting (1989)" at AboveTopSecret.com

Chris Gibson's Aurora Sighting (1989), page 1

Chris Gibson's Aurora Sighting (1989), page 1

www.abovetopsecret.com

Two Aviation Week 1990 articles; more than 33 years ago! What do we know now? More than in these articles?

 

[Jediwade7]

I think back in those days they determined the isp was lousy as compared to rocket engines. I think I have seen research with respect to base drag reduction on e.g. artillery shells.

Trust me the external burning has long been solved. It is a beautiful sight to see in flight.