Fairey F155T (OR 329) interceptor: "Fairey Delta 3"

[zen]

Several thoughts here, but the first and most is, if one has a generic question over engine locations, then it should be placed in the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum. Which is not here in a specific topic about the F155T winner.

That said some UK designs have a compact engine instalation, including some of the early P1103 studies, and of course a lot of the podded engine designs. It is not a simple matter, to say its not needed (long jetpipes) and its clearly not true to suggest UK firms did'nt know or try to produce designs with compact engine installations.

There is more than one issue affecting engine location.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In the mid 1950s, some designs stuck with centre mounted engines, primarily for balance reasons - even axial jet engines of the day were quite heavy. Given the tailless delta layout of the Fairey design, it probably helped to have the weight of the jet engine nearer the front - there were two rocket engines in the tail already.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Doing a bit of scanning I have come across two interesting little nuggets of information regarding the Fairey F.155T.

1) BSP Jet Fighters states that at the time of cancellation Fairey was doe to test a wing mockup for overwing air to air missile launchers. Were these an alternative to the underwing launchers or in addition to? And would they have been rated for just Blue Vesta or for Red Hebe, or even one of the smaller radar guided missiles then being proposed?

2) The skomer site mentions and RB.128 as an up-rated RB.122, then engine proposed for F.155T, is there any further information about this and its background?

http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/turbines.htm

Thanks in advance sealordlawrence.

 

[zen]

Who knows? Could be a special fuel type perhaps? About the right time for such an idea to ponder.

 

[JFC Fuller]

There is a apparently a sketch drawing of the RB.128 in the national archives though not held at the Kew site. It would be interesting to get ones hands on it.

The more I read BSP the more I am convinced that the drawings in this thread are not representative of what the final configuration would have been. The RAE was recommending considerable detail redesign, especially in the tail area, Fairey was to test an overwing missile carriage configuration and the avionics seem to have been anything but settled though the RRE was suggesting a 40 inch scanner which is suggested would have been a J-Band AI.23 derivative!

 

[zen]

Very likey your right, that back end is a bit clunky to say the least and needs work, even if we remove the rocket motors from the equations.

Overwing stores seem to be a British 'thing' for the times, Lightning got them, as did Jaguar. A common train of thought perhaps since it may be easier to design for the loads on the wing. Having designed the wing to take loads a certain point along its span, it might well be structuraly simpler to have a second pylon over the wing at the same position as the underwing pylon.

40 inch scanner sort of matches US efforts to get longer detection ranges.

 

[JFC Fuller]

From W A Harrison article on Fairey Deltas in Aircraft Illustrated Dec 1984

Looks like a bomb underwing? Perhaps the GOR 339 version?

Paul,

You probably know this by now but it is new to me. In the dying days of OR.329, as it was beginning to be understood just how expensive the new types were* (Fairey's F.155T being considerably more expensive than the AW offering in an already very expensive requirement), a very quick study was done to see if the Fairey OR.329 type could carry the tactical atomic weapon (Red Beard) and 1,000lb bombs and thus be multirole. This interest appears to have gone no further than a simple, yes it can, before the whole OR.329 project was cancelled. I suspect this image came from that study or as a result of it.

*One, remarkably astute by 1956/7 standards, senior officer pointed out that the RAF might be put in a position where it had to choose between OR.329 and OR.339.

 

[Triton]

Model of "Fairey Delta 3" on display at RAF Museum Cosford.

Source:
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/avaition-museum-news/raf-museum-cosford-exhibits-models-cancelled-concept-aircraft.html#more-5849

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thats Fairey's small single engine proposal for OR.329.

 

[Skyraider3D]

Anyone know if that's a temporary exhibition or a permanent addition to the museum? Looks very cool! B)

 

[steelpillow]

Anyone know if that's a temporary exhibition or a permanent addition to the museum? Looks very cool! B)

It's still advertised on their web site. I hope to go and see it soon, along with the FD.2 allegedly in the same hangar.

The RAF Museum at Hendon has all Sir Richard Fairey's old aircraft papers, including these:

F.D.2 development: The Fairey Fighter Aircraft (E.R.103 development), n.d. {cg}
Comb bound landscape typescript.
Also includes appendix. Proposal for a two seater fighter, based on the F.D.2.
REPORT {See Scope Note}
Object No. AC94/27/243

Variants of the Fairey two-seater fighter aircraft to F.155T specification, circa 1958 {cg}
Typescript, bound in one corner.
Talks about two-seater fighter / E.R. 103 variants intended to meet the interception aspect of the specification.
REPORT {See Scope Note}
Object No. AC94/27/246

Be interesting to see what's in them.

Oh, and one reason the Delta 3 was so clunky was because it was a long-range high-altitude interceptor specialised for intercepting Soviet bombers. I rather think the RAF always wanted that performance edge, so a single-engined beast could not both cut it and also carry enough fuel.
Interesting to see how the wing seems to have moved to a more sensible position by the time the model was made. Perhaps the engine position did the same.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Very nice Dan. My camera of 8 years ago sucked in comparison.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Model of "Fairey Delta 3" on display at RAF Museum Cosford.

Source:
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/avaition-museum-news/raf-museum-cosford-exhibits-models-cancelled-concept-aircraft.html#more-5849

I'll take photos in November when I'm there. Can't find any online so far.

 

[Hobbes]

Model of "Fairey Delta 3" on display at RAF Museum Cosford.

Source:
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/avaition-museum-news/raf-museum-cosford-exhibits-models-cancelled-concept-aircraft.html#more-5849

I'll take photos in November when I'm there. Can't find any online so far.

I took some photos on my visit in 2013, I'll see if they're any good and make them available.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Cool, thanks

 

[Hobbes]

I took ca. 100 photos. They aren't fantastic (white balance is off), but useful as a reference. For most of the models I also included the accompanying text.
The originals are 650 Mb when stored in a Zip file, I've uploaded that to WeTransfer, use this link to download them (available for 1 week from now, if you read this later, contact me via PM to get the files):

[link dead]

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thanks, I will upload later to forum!


White point issue should be fixable :

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here you go. Automated colour correction not perfect but better than nothing. Thanks Hobbes - this is the single engine version.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Looks like the model needs a good dusting.

 

[Arjen]

Very nice. Is that the BAC 221 behind/over the model?

 

[Hobbes]

Very nice. Is that the BAC 221 behind/over the model?

Yes.

Those photos were taken not long after the models were put on display, so I'd be surprised if they were dusty.

Edit: on closer inspection, I think you're right. You can see finger trails through the dust in some photos.

The models were put on display in June 2013: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/whats-going-on/news/models-of-cancelled-concept-aircraft-now-on-displa/

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

Fairey Delta III

Fairey Delta III profile page

www.rp-one.net

380 Fairey Delta 3 ideas in 2023 | delta, fighter jets, delta ii

Apr 5, 2023 - Explore Graeme Thomson's board "Fairey Delta 3", followed by 270 people on Pinterest. See more ideas about delta, fighter jets, delta ii.

jp.pinterest.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi! DELTA Ⅲ and Single seat fighter ER.103/C.

Fairey F.155 Delta III Interceptor

lost-aviation.blogspot.jp

https://flic.kr/p/aL8Rfa

380 Fairey Delta 3 ideas in 2023 | delta, fighter jets, delta ii

Apr 5, 2023 - Explore Graeme Thomson's board "Fairey Delta 3", followed by 270 people on Pinterest. See more ideas about delta, fighter jets, delta ii.

jp.pinterest.com

 

[blackkite]

Delta Ⅲ model and picture.

http://sp.olx.com.br/sao-paulo-e-regiao/hobbies-e-colecoes/fairey-delta-iii-caca-de-mach-3-0-equivale-ao-mig-25-274168210

After burner is located far aft from engine.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3083.0;attach=25031;image

DELTA Ⅲ specification
Span: 14.20m
Length: 22.60m
Wing area: 102 sqm
Powerplant: 2 turbojets RB.122 and two rocket motors Spectre Junior
Max speed: Mach 2+
MTOW with BJ : 21,772kg, with RD : 22,888kg
Armament: 2 Blue Jay or two Red Dean (AIR ENTHUSIAST)

Two seat fighter to Specification OR.329/F.155T
Span: 11.4m
Length: 17.1m
Wing area: 55.7 sqm
Powerplant: 1 turbojets Gyron and two rocket motors Spectre
Max speed: Mach 2.5
MTOW : 13,653kg
Armament: 2 Blue Jay (AIR ENTHUSIAST)

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O4G_2Z0FnI

ER.103B : experimental aircraft development of the Delta 2, applied the wings of the FD2 with a revised longer fuselage, had underwing fuel tanks, engine was Gyron or RB.122.
ER.103C : A combat fighter model, wings scaled up by 50 per cent, Ferranti Airborne Interception Radar 1495 and de Havilland Firestreak air-to-air missiles

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Two seat fighter to Specification OR.329/F.155T.

[jeu] Quel est cet avion ? - Page 39

Voila la suite. [img][/img] Bonnes comémo D-Day. Rapportes-nous des images des C-47. Nouvelle énigme: Engin agricole ? Australien ? US ?

fighters.forumactif.com

"Note also the engine, 2 rocket engines deHavilland Spectre Junior in addition to the big engine GYRON, the manly this two-seater!"

Display model shows interesting shape airintake.

And excellent side view here. Side of the airintake need some modification for variable air intake area mechanism?

Fairey E.R.103 (F.155T) Mach 2 High-Altitude Interceptor Proposal

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the Fairey E.R.103 (F.155T) Mach 2 High-Altitude Interceptor Proposal including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi! DELTA Ⅲto F.155T larger image . You can see two rocket motors.(29)

Excellent side view.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/f-155%E3%80%80delta%E3%80%80%E2%85%A2-jpg.577480/

 

[blackkite]

How about my understanding? Source : PROJECT CANCELLED, BSP JET FIGHTERS SINCE 1950, etc...

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
ER.103C and two seat single engine fighter to OR.329/F.155T. What is the name of two seat single engine fighter?
Source : PROJECT CANCELLED.

And....

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/fairey-er-103-fighters.3074/

 

[starviking]

Hi!
ER.103C and two seat single engine fighter to OR.329/F.155T. What is the name of two seat single engine fighter?
Source : PROJECT CANCELLED.

I think those scans are from "Project Cancelled" by Derek Wood. You may find the answer there.

You should also provide information on where you are getting your scans from, in this case, Project Cancelled. It will help others in finding more information and reduce the risk of duplicated work.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

lost projects of the golden era of british aircraft

lost projects of the golden era of british aircraft

beyondthesprues.com

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Fairey Delta III modification

 

[Petrus]

Fairey Delta III modification

'Fighter-bomber' not necessarily means ground-attack.

Regarding the Genie rocket as the best nuclear anti-bomber weapon the RAF predicted that its purchase would take some time, so they contemplated using the Red Beard nuclear bomb instead.
Here is a drawing showing how the bomb would be used in the anti-bomber rôle (from "Battle Flight" by Chris Gibson).

 

[starviking]

Fairey Delta III modification

Nuclear bomber, sure - but ground attack with rockets? Seems a very good way to lose a very expensive plane.

 

[zen]

Fairey Delta III modification

That is one hell of a ventral fuel tank!

 

[Hood]

I am curious, the drawings only have the bombs/rockets under the port wing, and the loadouts are only listed for an asymmetric load. Presumably this means a ventral tank and one underwing drop tank would always be needed for sufficient range at low level?
A thirsty beast.

Using a Delta III for rocket strafing attacks does seem rather wasteful when a Hunter or Canberra could do the strafing role just as well. Presumably there would have only been a relatively small F.155 force, so unlikely there would be interceptors to spare from the defence of the UK to go mud moving (and if T-55s got ashore in Kent the game would be up anyway).

 

[JFC Fuller]

My post on an air-to-ground role for the OR.329 aircraft from 2013 was the product of research at Kew. There was a specific study to see if the OR.329 aircraft could undertake the strike role with concern expressed that the RAF may have to choose between OR.329 and OR.339. Rather like OR.328 sought to use the already in development Gloster thin-wing Javelin airframe as a cost saving measure in the role of Canberra replacement, this study sought to use the Fairey F.155T. The presence of an enormous amount of external fuel and asymmetric stores carriage being seen on the Gloster proposals too, this may suggest that Fairey were also trying to meet a low-level requirement (this was a major driver of the need for more fuel). The brochure Paul posted probably being the industry response to this RAF interest. The Soviets had bomber and interceptor versions of the Yak-28, and the French of the Sud Aviation Vautour and the Super Vautour and Mirage IV layouts were schemed in both roles too, so the RAF weren't doing anything unusual by considering multipurpose airframes with missions defined by avionics and ordnance configurations.

I wouldn't read too much into the presence of rocket pods, along with free-fall bombs they constituted the two (three if you include cannon) available means of delivering conventional ordnance from an aircraft and if that aircraft was to approach its target at low level for survivability reasons anyway unguided rockets may have been a credible ordnance option.

 

[PMN1]

When was it hoped to put the F.155 spec, whatever design was chosen into service and in what quantities?