Failed Deterrence

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edwest4 said:
Even if they did, what next? Attack the United States?
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Yep. If you attack them with conventional weapons, they would retaliate against USA. If you are lucky, they would try to limit the escalation, and stike Wake, or Okinawa, or other military targets first - to clearly demonstrate, that they would not tolerate your agression. If you are not lucky, or refuse to back down - they would nuke American cities, killing hundreds of thousands (maybe millions - your civilian defense system most likely is completely unworkable, and most Americans have no clue where to find radiation shelter) of Americans.

Of course you could retaliate with nukes, and kill millions of North Koreans (albeit their civilian defense system is quite good, and they are well-prepared and disciplined, so nuclear attacks against them would most likely be less efficient - of course, you have much more bombs). But the result would be, that United States would took horrendous losses for little-to-no gain. Your career as president would quite probably end on electric chair as soon as Americans realize, that you brought them into nuclear war for nothing.
 
edwest4 said:
My source is Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty who served in the Pentagon during the period. He wrote the book, The Secret Team, and JFK. The CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy.
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His theory about Powers flight was made from 1973 point of view, and did not took into account the Soviet data. Which clearly demonstrated, that there were no altitude loss of U-2 (and none would be needed, because S-75 missiles have more than enough max altitude to reach U-2).
 
Dilandu said:
His theory about Powers flight was made from 1973 point of view, and did not took into account the Soviet data. Which clearly demonstrated, that there were no altitude loss of U-2 (and none would be needed, because S-75 missiles have more than enough max altitude to reach U-2).
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Allen Dulles appeared before the U.S. Senate to explain the downing of the U-2. He was the one who stated a "malfunction" had caused the plane to lose altitude. Had a missile struck the aircraft, or even a near miss, the aircraft would have disintegrated. Powers would not have survived.
 
Orionblamblam said:
When has *that* ever happened???
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The US has a long history of intervention in, especially, Central America and the Caribbean. These weren't quite on the whim of the President, but close.

None of the great powers of history have been consistently well-behaved or even moral in their military actions.
 
edwest4 said:
My source is Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty who served in the Pentagon during the period. He wrote the book, The Secret Team, and JFK. The CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy.

It's all there.
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Only garbage is there.
He is not a legitimate source. He ranks with moon hoaxers and flat earthers.
" He subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), which he believed was working on behalf of a secret world elite."
"Prouty wrote that he believed Kennedy's assassination was a coup d'état, and that there is a secret, global "power elite," which operates covertly to protect its interests".

I posted Goodpaster's memo on the approval for the May 1st flight. Can't get any better than Ike's recorded voice.
And then there is the liquid hydrogen nonsense.
 
edwest4 said:
Allen Dulles appeared before the U.S. Senate to explain the downing of the U-2. He was the one who stated a "malfunction" had caused the plane to lose altitude. Had a missile struck the aircraft, or even a near miss, the aircraft would have disintegrated. Powers would not have survived.
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Allen Dulles was trying to escape the ire from military, which were quite annoyed by CIA inability to provide any useful information for years. The U-2 blunder caused a special uproar, because it became obvious that all CIA data and assumptions about Soviet air defenses were wrong. By inventing the "malfunction" explanation, Dulles hoped to delay the consequences and escape the immediate wrath of too many important persons.

edwest4 said:
Had a missile struck the aircraft, or even a near miss, the aircraft would have disintegrated.
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The missile exploded behind U-2, causing a shrapnel damage to the engine and tail part, which break away from plane. It's confirmed by both Powers own report and Soviet reports. Powers quite clearly described the orange flash above the plane, and sudden total loss of all controls and engine power. His timing correspond perfectly with Soviet reports about downing. There is no need to invent ridiculous stories.
 
1635yankee said:
The US has a long history of intervention in, especially, Central America and the Caribbean. These weren't quite on the whim of the President, but close.
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What war was "close" to having been started on the whim of the President of the US? The US President doesn't have that power.
 
1635yankee said:
Not according to this site: https://aclj.org/national-security/...ilitary-action-without-congressional-approval or https://www.history.com/news/us-presidents-war-powers-congress
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Your own source states that "war" can only be declared by the US congress, not the President. May be a trivial distinction due to the President being able to conduct 60 days of military operation on their "whim", but it is a distinction.

The President also isn't using the militaries powers on a whim, that implies the President just wakes up one morning, or has a bad cup of coffee and says hey guys lets invade Argentina sounds like fun! The President uses the powers available to them based off of advice from the security cabinet and advisors, which hardly qualifies as "on a whim".
 
So call it 'special military operation'.
 
Arjen said:
So call it 'special military operation'.
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Oh I wouldn't say that the US, and pretty much every other major power in the world, has engaged in "special military operations" either. However I would say none of those that the US engaged in were on a President's "whim".
 
edwest4 said:
My source is Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty who served in the Pentagon during the period. He wrote the book, The Secret Team, and JFK. The CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy.

It's all there.
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He subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), which he believed was working on behalf of a secret world elite.
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This is what is traditionally called a "Conspiracy Theory".
 
edwest4 said:
Ah, the magic word that makes eyewitness testimony disappear.
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You can go on the CIA reading room and read the debriefings of Powers. He and everyone interrogating him seemed to be convinced that it was a SAM....
 
sienar said:
You can go on the CIA reading room and read the debriefings of Powers. He and everyone interrogating him seemed to be convinced that it was a SAM....
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Not to mention that Soviet SAM crew were pretty sure that it was a SAM, too)

For the record, even the very basic SA-75 "Dvina" with the V-750B missile was perfectly capable of reaching 25-27 km altitude. And later engagement of U-2 planes - one over Cuba in 1962, and five over China in 1962-1967 - rather clearly demonstrated, that U-2 is extremely vulnerable to S-75.

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The wreckage of four U-2 downed over China. I think, even edvest4 would heistate to declare that ALL of them malfunctioned...
 
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