F14 for the UK scenario

[apparition13]

The Fin as Tornado became known in the RAF was simply the right answer to the RAF requirements at the right price. The Germans and Italians seemed happy enough with theirs.
Yes, improved Buccaneers could have been ordered to replace the planned TSR2/P1154 force rather than Jaguars and Harriers. The Buc could probably have been a good MRCA substitute, better in some roles even. But ultimately Tornado gave the RAF a strike and interceptor force in the 80s.
The US types you mention were not designed for the RAF even if you were right about F14. Seems odd thst the USN has been operating an all F18 force for some time (starting with Midway and Coral Sea) and the USAF and Marines both rejected F14.

The Marines were going to get the F-14C. It got cancelled for a variety of reasons, including engines and the F-18. No F-18, and the Marines would have had F-14s. USAF had the F-15 and saw the F-14 as a threat, with reason as there were murmurings of cancelling it in favor of the F-14 early in the F-15 program's development.

Trade out TF30s for the uprated TF41/Speys and the development problems that opened the window for the F-18 may have been alleviated enough to prevent the F-18 from happening. At which point you get the F-14B (TF41 variant) in the 70s rather than late 80s (F110 variant), the F-14C (with attack avionics) about the time Tornado goes into service.

By the by, there are two versions of the F-14B. The 70s era F401 variant, and the 80s F110 variant. In both cases all you have is an A with a 27k+ thrust engine (wet). A TF41 912-B32 is in the same thrust class, so it would be a potential third version of a B model. The C got skipped in the 90s (it went B to D), but I would argue that, just as the B got reused for the F110 version of the A, the LANTIRN equipped F-14B "bombcats" could have been redesignated F-14C. The D already had attack functionality build into the aircraft.

Here is a photo of an F-14A prototype carrying 14 mk82 bombs. Image Mike Kern, from http://www.topedge.com/alley/text/other/bombcat.htm

 

[Volkodav]

I think 1968 is the perfect year to deviate because A) it's already a wild year B) AFVG dies in '67 C) same year that the MRA is born and F-111K is cancelled. D) F-14 is contracted and two years away

You need something to happen in 1968 which makes the UK decide they either cannot afford to wait on MRA/ADV development and/or that they cannot afford to develop a new air defense fighter. F-14 went to fleet in '74. ADV isn't going to be available for another decade (or more as it turned out)

Another wrinkle is instead if the F-111K order isn't cancelled in '67 or '68, does the Tornado requirement exist? Germany and Italy would have been happy with a smaller, shorter-range MRCA. UK drove the range requirement. Might Italy and Germany (and perhaps France) have developed a smaller aircraft, while the F-111K fills the interdiction role for the RAF? RAF still needs an interceptor in this scenario.

(And at the same time all this is happening McNamara is trying to shed the B-58's. If some perceived danger exists and a short timeline is necessary, I wonder if Britain might not accept the exceptional operations costs if the acquisition cost was zero under a lend/lease style agreement. They receive 100 airframes, and operate 30-50 while using the other remaining aircraft for as donors and a bank for attrition. Some combination of Aardvarks and/or Hustlers filling the high-speed medium bomber/interdiction/recce role and maybe used to further justify cutting the carriers. Means fewer V-bombers in service, and no Buccs for RAF [that order was another 1968 decision] and no MRCA participation. Offsets some of the operational costs... And as a deterrent, it's a lot more intimidating than the Buccs and Tornado that came later.

Just to get really "alternative" hehe.)

Actually it was the B-52 jockies in SAC who politically killed the B-58 by bodgying up figures they sent to the head shed, i.e. the number of B-52 wings they could retain if they scrapped two B-58 wings. What they were really talking about was the number of Brigadier General slots that would be lost if the smaller B-52 wings were disbanded instead of the larger B-58 ones. They were talking number of wings, not number of aircraft, let alone mission capability and survivability. Cook the books and keep the extra general billets alive, while conveniently getting rid of the annoying glory boys in their hot rods.

 

[Volkodav]

Interesting topic, thankyou all.

My two cents:
- CVA 01 and 2 (possibly even 3) are ordered but their construction is stretched to ridiculous degrees as has been seen with QE, Type 45, Type 26, Astute.
- Initially scheduled to replace Ark and Vic, avoiding the need for expensive upgrades, it rapidly becomes obvious that they will not be ready in time to make it worth ordering Phantom.
- Sea Vixen is upgraded and life extended and an interim option investigated to mitigate further delays, i.e. Crusader, or even upgraded Tigers, how about a VG Lightning?
- F-111K is not cancelled but a more anglisised version with Spey is specified to compensate for the loss of the F-4K/M order.
- The Spey powered F-111K proves so superior (performance and reliability) to the TF-30 F-111A the the USAF selects a TF-41 derivative for all future variants, Australia follows suit with their C model and existing A models are reengined.
- The TF-41 becomes the default engine for the F-14 which also becomes a joint project with the UK as an alternative for the cancelled Phantom order.
- All eight Type 82s are ordered, as are five Escort Cruisers (down from the planned eight, three for escorting the CVAs, five for the North Atlantic).
- Sacrifices are required seeing Ark and the Tigers retired early, Type 42 is cancelled, SSN construction is slowed and stretched, all frigates previous to the Leander are retired being either sold or scrapped.
- Leander moderisations, other than provision for Lynx instead of Wasp do not happen, Type 22 proceeds but slowly and Type 21 progressively becomes the backbone of the fleet.
- Counties are converted to DDHs as the Bristols enter service and retired as the Escort Cruisers arrive.
- RN settles on an Escort Group Structure of one Escort Cruiser, one or two Type 82, one or two Type 22, plus a couple of Leanders and Type 21s as required. The object of these groups is to escort the CVAs and Amphibious groups.
- With F-111 no need for Tornado, Bucc and Jaguar will do, with F-14 no Phantom or ADV. Dare I say it, maybe no Harrier or Sea Harrier, but then again, maybe a hybrid to fill both RN and RAF needs.

 

[uk 75]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sea-phoenix.12496/

Found this old thread. Sea Phoenix was around in 1977. No hardware only drawings of a proposed box launcher for USN.

 

[norseman]

For forwarding basing and smaller carrier use there could have been P.1154's with dual Spey/TF41's and no need for plenum burning. There was a plan for a twin engined naval variant but this was on the 14k lb thrust Spey and not the late 60's 17k+ dry model (with 18-19k expected early 70's). Would have been more transonic aircraft but it could have been a pretty useful V/STOL capable aircraft with big radar and decent payload and the just shy of 40k dry thrust not to far from the F-35.

the options for enhanced growth versions of the Spey/TF-41 use would have been pretty good outside the F14 and F-111K, uprated Corsair, Crusader, Phantoms, Nimrods, Buccs, A-5 and maybe even later throw in F-16 and F-15 with a 19k dry/29k reheat a long time before the current likes of the F110 growth versions. Wishful thinking indeed.

 

[zen]

For forwarding basing and smaller carrier use there could have been P.1154's with dual Spey/TF41's and no need for plenum burning. There was a plan for a twin engined naval variant but this was on the 14k lb thrust Spey and not the late 60's 17k+ dry model (with 18-19k expected early 70's). Would have been more transonic aircraft but it could have been a pretty useful V/STOL capable aircraft with big radar and decent payload and the just shy of 40k dry thrust not to far from the F-35.

the options for enhanced growth versions of the Spey/TF-41 use would have been pretty good outside the F14 and F-111K, uprated Corsair, Crusader, Phantoms, Nimrods, Buccs, A-5 and maybe even later throw in F-16 and F-15 with a 19k dry/29k reheat a long time before the current likes of the F110 growth versions. Wishful thinking indeed.

No RR proposal to meet weight issues had secretly stripped out supersonic components. On discovery twin Spey option dies.