F-14 + AIM 54 in fleet defense

Don't forget that Hughes made all three of these radars (AWG-9, AN/APG-63, AN/APG-65), each building on the experiences of the last. AWG-9 owed a lot to the earlier ASG-18.

Westinghouse made their AN/APG-63 contender more out of older technology and it actually performed way better than Hughes' design in flyoff testing, but when it occasionally worked the Hughes radar showed greater potential. So there's always a tension between technology level, reliability, ease of development, etc.
 
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Don't forget that Hughes made all three of these radars (AWG-9, AN/APG-63, AN/APG-65), each building on the experiences of the last. AWG-9 owed a lot to the earlier ASG-18.

Westinghouse made their AN/APG-63 contender more out of older technology and it actually performed way better than Hughes' design in flyoff testing, but when it occasionally worked the Hughes radar showed greater potential. So there's always a tension between technology level, reliability, ease of development, etc.
When you say things like that it really makes me wonder if Hughes was a research institution or a military contractor.
 
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It was both. Hughes employed lots of scientists doing basic research. While Westinghouse relied on subcontractors and integrating somewhat off-the-shelf components, Hughes would be inventing their own technologies.

Hughes therefore usually promised the most advanced thing with the highest performance in most competitions, but often hit teething issues and reliability problems associated with living on the bleeding edge and cost was often an issue.
 
B) The active radar guided version needed its host aircraft to detect the carrier from 350km range, just about doable in a Tu-22M with PN-A radar flying at 12km, then receive mid-course corrections from said carrier aircraft, which has to be able to resist any jamming from the carrier group to track the carrier as the missile flies out until the active radar on the missile takes over. Not sure how a far a Tu-22M at 1000m would be able to detect a carrier.
This online calculator puts radar horizon to the carrier's mast height at 1000 meters to be 130 kilometers away.

This is well within the patrol distance of the Tomcat. It is also within range of RIM-67C, but that missile is a contemporary of both AEGIS and APG-71/AIM-54C.

As far as the F-111B versus F-14A - the F-111B is indeed by many measures the better patrol interceptor. More time on station with more missiles and all that. The problem is that that's the only thing that it can do, and as the F-111B was being developed the USN found itself having to develop a completely separate fighter aircraft both on cost grounds (the F-111B was likely to be too expensive to provide more than one squadron per carrier) and on capability grounds (still needed a maneuvering fighter for things like fighter escort of strike packages and MIGCAP). At which point they did some studies about fitting AWG-9 and AIM-54 in that instead, found it worked, and cancelled the F-111B.

That's my understanding of the process, anyway.
 
This online calculator puts radar horizon to the carrier's mast height at 1000 meters to be 130 kilometers away.

This is well within the patrol distance of the Tomcat. It is also within range of RIM-67C, but that missile is a contemporary of both AEGIS and APG-71/AIM-54C.

As far as the F-111B versus F-14A - the F-111B is indeed by many measures the better patrol interceptor. More time on station with more missiles and all that. The problem is that that's the only thing that it can do, and as the F-111B was being developed the USN found itself having to develop a completely separate fighter aircraft both on cost grounds (the F-111B was likely to be too expensive to provide more than one squadron per carrier) and on capability grounds (still needed a maneuvering fighter for things like fighter escort of strike packages and MIGCAP). At which point they did some studies about fitting AWG-9 and AIM-54 in that instead, found it worked, and cancelled the F-111B.

That's my understanding of the process, anyway.
In regards to the VFAX/-111B/VFX

Post in thread 'USN VFX Competition (Alternatives to the F-14)'
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...tion-alternatives-to-the-f-14.229/post-159474

Post in thread 'General Dynamics / Grumman F-111B'
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/general-dynamics-grumman-f-111b.1965/post-215068
 
I suspect that in this photo, the upper track is the path of a radio-electronic counteraction aircraft, Tu-22P

22%D0%9C-165-jpg.714982


web.jpg
 
1965 - 1975 saw rapid changes in computer technology which affected what was possible. AN/APG-63 was able to have a digital signal processor but it was hard wired and in some respects too early and caused as many problems as it solved. The AN/APG-65 was later again, able to have an excellent programmable signal processor, which was repurposed for the AN/APG-63 as the PSP upgrade in 1979 which really help unlocked the AN/APG-63 potential.
It's worth remembering that the F-14A was really just a prototype that equipped a dozen squadrons. Not just the engines, which are a well known weakness, but the radar was also planned for replacement. There doesn't seem to be much out there on what the new system would have been capable of, but it was seemingly to have been an electronically-scanned array with digital processing. My guess is that it would have been at least equivalent to an APG-63 on the back end, but wouldn't have seen service until the early 1980s.
 
It's worth remembering that the F-14A was really just a prototype that equipped a dozen squadrons. Not just the engines, which are a well known weakness, but the radar was also planned for replacement. There doesn't seem to be much out there on what the new system would have been capable of, but it was seemingly to have been an electronically-scanned array with digital processing. My guess is that it would have been at least equivalent to an APG-63 on the back end, but wouldn't have seen service until the early 1980s.
I don’t know about an early 80s ESA radar. There was one discussed for Tomcat 21. But yeah, the F-14A (VFX-1 in 1968) with the TF30s was to be quickly replaced after about 60-70 of that type built with F-14B (VFX-2 in 1968) with the F401 engines.
 
It's worth remembering that the F-14A was really just a prototype that equipped a dozen squadrons. Not just the engines, which are a well known weakness, but the radar was also planned for replacement. There doesn't seem to be much out there on what the new system would have been capable of, but it was seemingly to have been an electronically-scanned array with digital processing. My guess is that it would have been at least equivalent to an APG-63 on the back end, but wouldn't have seen service until the early 1980s.
That was the original intention, yes. Had it stayed on track and had proposed upgrades been cheaper and easier to integrate into the Tomcat, and the F401 had produced a good engine, I would have fewer concerns about its ability to stay relevant.
But even after 14A+/B/D, the majority of 14As were still early 14A spec with TF30s and some even retaining ALR-45 into the Gulf war.
 
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That was the original intention, yes. Had it stayed on track and had proposed upgrades been cheaper and easier to integrate into the Tomcat, such as F401, I would have fewer concerns about its ability to stay relevant.
But even after 14A+/B/D, the majority of 14As were still early 14A spec with TF30s and some even retaining ALR-45 into the Gulf war.
The Fleet Air Defense Mission (shooting down missile carrying bombers) existed b4 the F14 and before the -111B going back to the F6D. Btw, the Eagle missile was likely better than Phoenix.
If Tomcat wouldn’t cut it, there would still be a requirement. Soviet Naval Aviation wasn’t going to get free shots.
Going back to F6D, the hope was to pair it with Typhon. A very long range SAM was always wanted by the Navy.
 
I'm mostly complaining pre-Aegis. This solved the missile interception problem either way. By the time 54C/APG-71 was in service, so was Aegis. I will also agree that I'm being somewhat unfair to the 14. In part, this is because I am comparing it to VFAX/111B, which would have been in service earlier and performed their respective roles better than the 14 did. I know that's a budgetary thing rather than a Grumman thing.
1/2: I was informed that the KH-22 had defensive ECM by a friend. If you're telling me it doesn't, I was wrong. In that case, AWG-9 should have no issues handling low-flying missiles.
Earlier AWG-9/54A should have been able to intercept the early Kh-22 by that point if had no ECM. I still don't see the 14s being particularly successful handling the backfires themselves if what I have been told about SPS-151 is correct.

I know. I don't know enough about those to discuss the ability of a carrier group to handle a backfire strike. I'm focusing on one plane and its ability to play its role in interception.

One final edit: I can't read Russian. I'm an American. The best you'll get out of me is a little bit of kindergarten-level Traditional Chinese.

So what specific ECM modes would prevent the phoenix from not hitting. Its a planar array with HOJ. We know there were successful tests against blinking noise jammers. What specific jamming method would prevent a HOJ track to burn through?

Additionally if the bombers have been shot at by missiles their going to turn and run home if this occurs before they've launched their missiles its mission success. If you kill a few even better. In addition you don't want a single system layer of defense the whole point of the outer air battle is to attrite missile salvos, by any method, to the point you prevent saturation of defenses. Both AEGIS and the F14 play a role here all in the name of protecting the key asset the carrier. In addition AGEIS has no capacity to reach out and kill snoopers. Not only is its missile range not sufficent its almost certain its radar signals, or those of E2's, could be tracked well before detection of a patrol aircraft.
 
I suspect that in this photo, the upper track is the path of a radio-electronic counteraction aircraft, Tu-22P

22%D0%9C-165-jpg.714982
That's what, a representation of an attack on a carrier group in the Med/Adriatic, launched from Ukraine SSR?

Looks to be flying over some front lines, then splitting out into 11x attack streams? So, reinforced Bomber Regiment?
 
There are only three variants of such a scenario, the Northern Fleet, the Pacific Fleet or the Black Sea Fleet.
I was debating between Med and Baltic for the location of the carrier group till I parsed the mountains.
 
The Fleet Air Defense Mission (shooting down missile carrying bombers) existed b4 the F14 and before the -111B going back to the F6D. Btw, the Eagle missile was likely better than Phoenix.
If Tomcat wouldn’t cut it, there would still be a requirement. Soviet Naval Aviation wasn’t going to get free shots.
Going back to F6D, the hope was to pair it with Typhon. A very long range SAM was always wanted by the Navy.
The most important advantage of Typhon (and Aegis) was not range, but the greatly increased number of fire channels hence greatly increasing the effort the Soviets would have to make to saturate the Task Force defences with large missile attacks.
 
Fishpot was the codename for the Sukhoi Su-9 interceptor Archibald. As far as I know it was built to counter the US B-58 Hustler Mach 2 bomber.
 

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Fishpot was the codename for the Sukhoi Su-9 interceptor Archibald. As far as I know it was built to counter the US B-58 Hustler Mach 2 bomber.
I think the question was, what does the word "Fishpot" mean?

Fishbed is a real word - a sedimentary stratum rich in fossil remains of fish
Fishpot is actually two words - Fish pot - a device for trapping fish

I think the name was a stretch, but the idea was to show the interrelatedness of the two designs.
 
So what specific ECM modes would prevent the phoenix from not hitting. Its a planar array with HOJ. We know there were successful tests against blinking noise jammers.
I actually never heard of testing against blinking noise jammer. I honestly don't even know how more modern missile like AIM-120 or even Meteor deal with blinking noise jammer. That very interesting to me. Can you give me a source?
What specific jamming method would prevent a HOJ track to burn through?
Terrain bounce noise jamming or blinking noise jamming between multiple missile?
 
First point. Read the first snippet from the Friedman chapter. The entire arc of protection against bombers was to be 45-60 degrees. Not each fighter. They were explicitly concerned about the effects that Russian jamming had or was going to have on their equipment. TU-22Ms of the 70s carried internal defensive jamming systems that were very advanced and AWG-9 had very little ECCM capability. Yes. F-14 was designed to intercept bombers before launch. But the capability was not really there given what I know and what Friedman explicitly says.
So this keeps getting thrown around, and I think it's a misunderstanding of both the tactics at play here and what Friedman is talking about. I would also encourage those here to read Tokarev, Vego Milan's Soviet Naval Tactics, the Friedman book, Who's got the grease pencil, and watch Friedman's lecture here (It paints a much fuller picture than the couple of screenshots being passed around on twitter).

Much is made of the "multi-axis attack" that SNA-MRA was hoping to achieve. However, there are two critical factors at play which caveat what is on paper, an extremely scary scenario: the threat axis, and the split point. In Who's Got the Grease Pencil the logic behind determining threat axis of an expected attack is detailed:
“Where are the Backfires based?” “What is their maximum fueled and unrefueled range?” After answering some basic questions, he asked us, “so if you are correct, and our Battle Group is located ‘here’ ... what would be the threat axis?” Using a push pin and a string normally used to calculate time/distance information for long duration flights, we started to posit threat arcs around our Battle Group – that were dependent on the carrier’s distance from the bomber bases. Then he asked the group what would change if the carrier pulled back another 100, 200, 300 miles? Theoretically, if we backed up the carrier to the maximum range of the threat aircraft– and if we knew their launch point – we could determine with precision the attack bearing of an inbound threat.
Distance, and later on tipper information could be used to determine with precision the anticipated axis of attack. The "limited to a 45-60 degree arc" you are talking about is not a limitation, its simply staging as much as you can along the threat axis. Friedman's exact words are:
Tactics were based on the expectation that external sources of information would indicate the general direction of attack within a 45-60 degree sector, so fighters would be concentrated in that sector.
What's critical here is that Friedman is not saying you cannot defend across a wider arc, but why would you? The original twitter thread seems to misinterpret tactical considerations as some sort of hard limitation that did not understand the threat. Vector Logic tactics during the early 1980s could provide 360, 180, etc degree coverage. The range at which the Long Range CAPs were stationed at was reduced however, which complicated the intercept problem and reduced the time the interceptors had. As Soviet missiles grew in range (although Soviet tactics and kill chain did not grow accordingly), Vector Logic alone was just cutting it much too close.

This brings me to the Split point, fuel and information influenced where the Bombers would "split" from the most efficient straight line to the CVBG and set up on multiple axes. Tokarev provides some insight into the general rule of thumb for the breakaway point:
Long before reaching the target, at a “split” position approximately five hundred kilometers from the carrier task force, and if the target’s current position had been somehow roughly confirmed, the air division’s two regimental formations would divide into two or three parts each.
Now, given that tactics such as Chainsaw and Tanksaw saw Tomcats being set up 400NM+ from the CVBG, a split point well inside of this is less than ideal. Essentially, the Tomcats were positioned to "jump" the bombers before they could even get enough space to setup the famed multi-axis attack, let alone fire their missiles. A separate intercept tactic dubbed by Friedman as "Strikecap" would see intercepts at ranges of 1,000NM away from the Carrier. I would also contend that even if the bombers were allowed to split, unmolested, they still wouldn't really be attacking that much outside a 60-degree axis to begin with. As with everything, fuel is life, and every mile you extend your split is less gas to make the very long, and very nerve-wracking trip back to Murmansk. Milan's diagram of a typical ASM attack points to a much narrower attack then the classic harpoon scenarios of the early 2000s liked to give us:
I like Zach, he puts a lot of good content out on twitter, but when it comes to the Outer Air Battle, I think he was wrong. Now this not to say the USN wouldn't have experienced problems, nothing ever works perfectly. But I echo Friedman's cautious optimism regarding our ability to successfully engage SNA-MRA divisional attacks.

Sources
Kamikazes: The Soviet Legacy
Friedman, N. (2016). Fighters over the fleet: Naval air defence from biplanes to the Cold War. Naval Institute Press.
“Who’s got the grease pencil?!” What Cyber Security can Learn from the Outer Air Battle
Vego, M. N. (1992). Soviet naval tactics. Naval Institute Press.


EDIT:
While we are posting EW anecdotes, Id like to share one of my favorites from a Tomcat pilot, as always everything is 10% true ;):
During an OAB exercise off of Ike, we were launched as a DLI, having the only jet in the air wing without tanks onboard, into a 300’ overcast. Probably the most technically talented RIO I’d flown with, a genius who worked at LMT on the A12. We had been listening to frantic calls from the E2C about a high speed inbound rider, low altitude, jamming and chaff. Everyone thought it was an F111. The outer CAPs didn’t have the fuel, the geometry, or the speed to catch it. So we were launched. I cut across the bow off of CAT One, rolled out on the intercept heading, and left the engines in afterburner. We ended up intercepting the inbound bogey at 500 MSL, 50 miles from the ship, despite the jamming and chaff, flying the entire profile in the clouds.


He was doing 540 KIAS, and we rolled out behind him, above Mach, which was daunting that low, with the ASI unwinding to below SL as we exceeded the number. Craig kept after it, the powerful radar energy burned through the jamming, he tweaked and employed mode agility, and we kept contact and closed carefully from the rear quarter after simulating forward quarter shots. I came out of burner, which causes a bobble, careful not to end up in the water. Radar altimeters are worth their weight in gold.


Out of the murk, a massive B1 materialized, filling my windscreen. I had offset the diamond slightly to the upper left side of the HUD, because we were closing in the clouds, and it’s a good thing I did. The B1 was massive compared to the F111 we expected. I eased to the right, and pulled alongside. The B1’s copilot was visibly pissed, banging on the glare shield when he noticed us out there, and he realized that he had been “killed” by the decrepit, outdated, useless, archaic weapons system in the F14A.
 
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So this keeps getting thrown around, and I think it's a misunderstanding of both the tactics at play here and what Friedman is talking about. I would also encourage those here to read Tokarev, Vego Milan's Soviet Naval Tactics, the Friedman book, Who's got the grease pencil, and watch Friedman's lecture here (It paints a much fuller picture than the couple of screenshots being passed around on twitter).

Much is made of the "multi-axis attack" that SNA-MRA was hoping to achieve. However, there are two critical factors at play which caveat what is on paper, an extremely scary scenario: the threat axis, and the split point. In Who's Got the Grease Pencil the logic behind determining threat axis of an expected attack is detailed:

The "limited to a 45-60 degree arc" you are talking about is not a limitation, its simply staging as much as you can along the threat axis. Friedman's exact words are:

What's critical here is that Friedman is not saying you cannot defend across a wider arc, but why would you? The original twitter thread seems to misinterpret tactical considerations as some sort of hard limitation that did not understand the threat. On the contrary, it would appear 45-60 degrees would be overkill!

This brings me to the Split point, fuel and information influenced where the Bombers would "split" from the most efficient straight line to the CVBG and set up on multiple axes. Tokarev provides some insight into the general rule of thumb for the breakaway point:

Now, given that Vector Logic saw Tomcats being set up 500NM+ from the CVBG, a split point well inside of this is less than ideal. Essentially, the Tomcats were positioned to "jump" the bombers before they could even get enough space to setup the famed multi-axis attack, let alone fire their missiles! Friedman dub's this the "Strikecap", and it was a very important aspect of the outer air battle. I would also contend that even if the bombers were allowed to split, unmolested, they still wouldn't really be attacking that much outside a 60-degree axis to begin with. As with everything, fuel is life, and every mile you extend your split is less gas to make the very long, and very nerve-wracking trip back to Murmansk. Milan's diagram of a typical ASM attack points to a much narrower attack then the classic harpoon scenarios of the early 2000s liked to give us:

I like Zach, he puts a lot of good content out on twitter, but when it comes to the Outer Air Battle, I think he was wrong. Now this not to say the USN wouldn't have experienced problems, nothing ever works perfectly. But I echo Friedman's cautious optimism regarding our ability to successfully engage SNA-MRA divisional attacks.

Sources
Kamikazes: The Soviet Legacy
Friedman, N. (2016). Fighters over the fleet: Naval air defence from biplanes to the Cold War. Naval Institute Press.
“Who’s got the grease pencil?!” What Cyber Security can Learn from the Outer Air Battle
Vego, M. N. (1992). Soviet naval tactics. Naval Institute Press.


EDIT:
While we are posting EW anecdotes, Id like to share one of my favorites from a Tomcat pilot, as always everything is 10% true ;):
I posted a comment on the Friedman lecture you linked that it was cut short b4 it got to the good part about OAB. I replied to Zach’s tweet about the 45-60 deg and how that’s not what Friedman said but no response.
 
So this keeps getting thrown around, and I think it's a misunderstanding of both the tactics at play here and what Friedman is talking about. I would also encourage those here to read Tokarev, Vego Milan's Soviet Naval Tactics, the Friedman book, Who's got the grease pencil, and watch Friedman's lecture here (It paints a much fuller picture than the couple of screenshots being passed around on twitter).

Much is made of the "multi-axis attack" that SNA-MRA was hoping to achieve. However, there are two critical factors at play which caveat what is on paper, an extremely scary scenario: the threat axis, and the split point. In Who's Got the Grease Pencil the logic behind determining threat axis of an expected attack is detailed:

The "limited to a 45-60 degree arc" you are talking about is not a limitation, its simply staging as much as you can along the threat axis. Friedman's exact words are:

What's critical here is that Friedman is not saying you cannot defend across a wider arc, but why would you? The original twitter thread seems to misinterpret tactical considerations as some sort of hard limitation that did not understand the threat. On the contrary, it would appear 45-60 degrees would be overkill!

This brings me to the Split point, fuel and information influenced where the Bombers would "split" from the most efficient straight line to the CVBG and set up on multiple axes. Tokarev provides some insight into the general rule of thumb for the breakaway point:

Now, given that Vector Logic saw Tomcats being set up 500NM+ from the CVBG, a split point well inside of this is less than ideal. Essentially, the Tomcats were positioned to "jump" the bombers before they could even get enough space to setup the famed multi-axis attack, let alone fire their missiles! Friedman dub's this the "Strikecap", and it was a very important aspect of the outer air battle. I would also contend that even if the bombers were allowed to split, unmolested, they still wouldn't really be attacking that much outside a 60-degree axis to begin with. As with everything, fuel is life, and every mile you extend your split is less gas to make the very long, and very nerve-wracking trip back to Murmansk. Milan's diagram of a typical ASM attack points to a much narrower attack then the classic harpoon scenarios of the early 2000s liked to give us:

I like Zach, he puts a lot of good content out on twitter, but when it comes to the Outer Air Battle, I think he was wrong. Now this not to say the USN wouldn't have experienced problems, nothing ever works perfectly. But I echo Friedman's cautious optimism regarding our ability to successfully engage SNA-MRA divisional attacks.

Sources
Kamikazes: The Soviet Legacy
Friedman, N. (2016). Fighters over the fleet: Naval air defence from biplanes to the Cold War. Naval Institute Press.
“Who’s got the grease pencil?!” What Cyber Security can Learn from the Outer Air Battle
Vego, M. N. (1992). Soviet naval tactics. Naval Institute Press.


EDIT:
While we are posting EW anecdotes, Id like to share one of my favorites from a Tomcat pilot, as always everything is 10% true ;):
I think you're right on the misreading and not fully understanding Soviet strike/USN strikecap tactics.

I still have my misgivings about AWG-9 and Soviet ECM in the 80s, but you have made a better argument than anyone else thus far.
 
The most important advantage of Typhon (and Aegis) was not range, but the greatly increased number of fire channels hence greatly increasing the effort the Soviets would have to make to saturate the Task Force defences with large missile attacks.
To be exact, Typhon tried to get both; the multiple simultaneous intercepts and greater range, to be capable of more engagements.
 
I actually never heard of testing against blinking noise jammer. I honestly don't even know how more modern missile like AIM-120 or even Meteor deal with blinking noise jammer. That very interesting to me. Can you give me a source?

Terrain bounce noise jamming or blinking noise jamming between multiple missile?
There is mention of a test against a high altitude supersonic drone in the below. I can get you the full file here when I get back to my computer in a few days if you want it.
1704050598804.png 1704050575297.png
 
There is mention of a test against a high altitude supersonic drone in the below. I can get you the full file here when I get back to my computer in a few days if you want it.
View attachment 715333
Oh, I would love to have the file, it seem very interesting
Nevertheless, when you said blinking noise jamming, I was under the impression that you talked about 2-3 drones, all have their jammer on alternatively to confuse the HOJ sensor
1AB1C801-D7F9-4738-9B7A-373546CD4C75.jpeg
61EB6CEE-B142-4742-9872-87FA469B5F95.jpeg
 

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