European MGCS ( Main Ground Combat System)

Grey Havoc said:
Though they seem to be pitching it squarely at the MGCS program, whether in earnest or just to get some of the R&D funding is debatable of course.
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Well they are calling this version the SHARD 120 which is a very variant specific name and leaves open other calibres for SHARD plus,

The validation and qualification of innovative technology building blocks in the SHARD programme is also one of the milestones in the development of very high performance ammunition for future land combat systems, in particular the Main Ground Combat System.
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Seems like they have ideas going forward with the whole SHARD project.
 
Nexter has been busy...

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Nexter is proposing the ASCALON concept ("Autoloaded and SCALable Outperforming guN") designed to cope with the latest generation of heavy armor while staying ahead of the threats of the next half-centur
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www.armyrecognition.com

Nexter proposes ASCALON for future of battle tank armament

Leaning on its expertise in battle tank armament, illustrated by the Leclerc's self-loading gun, and on the excellence of its ammunition activity, Nex
www.armyrecognition.com www.armyrecognition.com
 
Modern sabot rounds are already heavily telescoped; this just takes it to the logical extreme by pushing the sabot all the way to the front of the dart and filling the volume of the case behind it. NEXTER has some experience with "puller" sabots like this, thanks to 40 CTA.

Just guessing that this is a 140mm gun, with a dart around 1 meter long.

Edit: interestingly, this telescoped round is about the same length overall as the new Rheinmetall 130mm design, at 1.3m.
 
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TomS said:
Modern sabot rounds are already heavily telescoped; this just takes it to the logical extreme by pushing the sabot all the way to the front of the dart and filling the volume of the case behind it. NEXTER has some experience with "puller" sabots like this, thanks to 40 CTA.

Just guessing that this is a 140mm gun, with a dart around 1 meter long.

Edit: interestingly, this telescoped round is about the same length overall as the new Rheinmetall 130mm design, at 1.3m.
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Then that dart is what, 1.10 - 1.20 meters long? Damn son.

Also, that split flash channel for ignition looks funky.
 
MihoshiK said:
TomS said:
Modern sabot rounds are already heavily telescoped; this just takes it to the logical extreme by pushing the sabot all the way to the front of the dart and filling the volume of the case behind it. NEXTER has some experience with "puller" sabots like this, thanks to 40 CTA.

Just guessing that this is a 140mm gun, with a dart around 1 meter long.

Edit: interestingly, this telescoped round is about the same length overall as the new Rheinmetall 130mm design, at 1.3m.
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Then that dart is what, 1.10 - 1.20 meters long? Damn son.

Also, that split flash channel for ignition looks funky.
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Probably on the low end of that range. The APFSDS round might actually be a little shorter than the other rounds, since HE/HEAT rounds want to maximize the volume of the projectile and can't be totally buried in the propellant like the APFSDS dart.

But yeah, it's a beast no matter how you measure it. OTOH, I've seen several articles noting that the KE being claimed isn't terribly impressive, only a modest improvement over the current long-barrel 120mm.
 
KE figures are probably for the penetrator and not the entire projectile. Rheinmetall expected its old 140mm gun to impart 14 megajoules to the penetrator against 23 MJ to the projectile.
 
Void said:
KE figures are probably for the penetrator and not the entire projectile. Rheinmetall expected its old 140mm gun to impart 14 megajoules to the penetrator against 23 MJ to the projectile.
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I really have no idea how much energy gets left in the sabot. Presumably as little as possible?
 
TomS said:
Void said:
KE figures are probably for the penetrator and not the entire projectile. Rheinmetall expected its old 140mm gun to impart 14 megajoules to the penetrator against 23 MJ to the projectile.
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I really have no idea how much energy gets left in the sabot. Presumably as little as possible?
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I recall reading somewhere that the sabot can eat up to 30% of the KE, but don't quote me on that. Anyway, the things aren't as light as you'd think (They have to be pretty sturdy after all), and reducing their weight is an important design goal.
 
tequilashooter said:
naukatehnika.com

Эти «монстры» пробьют все! Французы наконец показали бронебойные снаряды перспективной 140-мм танковой пушки

Новые боеприпасы для перспективной 140-мм танковой пушки Nexter ASCALON (Autoloaded and SCALable Outperforming guN) были показаны на выставке вооружений DSEI 2021. Производителем снарядов, как и самой танковой пушки, является французская компания Nexter, которая входит в структуру...
naukatehnika.com

These "monsters" will punch everything! The French finally showed armor-piercing shells of a promising 140-mm tank gun. #Бронекаталог Sergey Shumilin Yesterday at 06:00 1084 0 New ammunition for the promising 140-mm tank gun Nexter ASCALON (Autoloaded and SCALable Outperforming guN) was shown at the DSEI arms exhibition 2021. The manufacturer of shells, as well as the tank gun itself, is the French company Nexter, which is part of the franco-German concern KNDS. Ammunition for the promising 140-mm gun Nexter ASCALON, arms exhibition DSEI 2021. Its concept of tank weapons " ASCALON (Autoloaded and SCALable Outperforming guN) the company Nexter presented in April 2021 The development includes a new tank gun with an automatic loader. It is designed to equip advanced tanks - primarily for the tank created in the framework of the Franco-German joint program MGCS (Main Ground Combat System - translated as "Main Ground Combat System"). According to Nexter, "A new generation of large-caliber weapons must guarantee the tactical superiority of the armed forces not only tomorrow (2035), but also in the decades to come." Conceptual images of the promising French tank gun Nexter ASCALON (Autoloaded and SCALable Outperforming guN) caliber 140 mm, and telescopic armor-piercing subcaliber shot for it. Features of the ASCALON system are declared: - increased caliber - 140 mm; - compact telescopic ammunition, thanks to this design, the core of the armor-piercing subcaliber projectile will have an "unsurpassed length" with a total maximum length of the shot of 1300 mm. Creating such projectiles is an extremely difficult technical task, because they, having a large length, must be perfectly balanced, otherwise it will not be possible to ensure their stable flight after the shot; - the possibility of using guided munitions, including over-the-horizon range; - high firepower: due to the special design of the gun chamber for sub-caliber ammunition, the energy level of the shot is declared to be about 10 megajoules, while maintaining the calculated pressure level in the barrel channel below the current calibers. At the exhibition, for clarity, promising 140-mm shells were shown together with standard 120-mm shells in service with the armies of NATO countries. The company Nexter has already experimented with a tank smoothbore gun caliber 140 mm. Its tests took place in 2012 Leclerc tank with new weapons made more than 200 shots. Now its specialists are very useful developments of those years. Image of a promising European tank MGCS (Main Ground Combat System). Recall that a new tank gun of increased power, which can also be used on the promising European tank MGCS, is also being developed by the German concern Rheinmetall. However, the caliber is smaller than the French - only 130 mm. Prototype - Rheinmetall Next Generation (NG) was first presented at the exhibition "Eurosatory 2016" in Paris. This 130-mm gun has a barrel length of 51 caliber, and muzzle energy, according to the developers reaches 19.5 megajoules. A 130-mm shot with an armor-piercing subcaliber shell with a detachable pallet (APFSDS-T) and a semi-combustible sleeve has already been developed for it.
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the europeans maybe a track for longer range APS to defend against more threats and from farther away plus possibly "revenge shot" against threat shooters proposed by the Ground Vehicle Systems Center. Quickill and SLID are other candidates for further develpoment to counter threat shooters.

below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

Hardkill APS overview

Active protection systems (APS) have been an important topic when it comes to enhancing the protection of modern combat vehicles since a nu...
below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

Scudo (Italian for "shield") is an active protection system developed by the Italian industry on behalf of the Italian Army. The development of Scudo was initiated in 2002 with Oto Melara apparently acting as main contractor. While most APS are utilizing either box-based or launcher-based countermeasures, Scudo makes use of both systems: the launcher-based countermeasures are described as APS, while the box-based contermeasures are called "active armor".
The contract for the development of the sensor suite for the APS and active armor was awarded in 2002, while the contract to develop the countermeasures was awarded in 2003. At this time it was expected that the development could be finished by 2006 to such an degree, so that live firing tests should be possible. The original plans saw the system ready for series production by 2009.

Graphic representing Scudo on the Ariete

For detecting the theats, Oto Melara or a sub-contractor would develop an X-band dual frequency CW radar with a range of at least 500 metres, if possible even a range of 1,000 metres. This radar would detect incoming projectiles and transfer the data to the computer unit, which then lets the hardkill launchers engage the threat when necessary. The six-barreled launchers are meant to engage the threat within a range of 30 to 100 metres from the vehicle. For a 180° rotation they should have a reaction time of only 250 ms (the total system reaction time would be slightly more, due to the tracking, etc. being part of this). For larger vehicles at least two launchers would be employed. The weight of a launcher should be less than 90 kilograms. Each launcher was required to be capable of 360° traverse and up to 30° (45° desired) elevation.
Each launcher holds up to six countermeasures, which have a 70 mm diameter and a total length of 300 mm (200 mm without fins). The countermeasure has a payload of 3.5 kilograms and is fitted with a pre-fragmented warhead, which detonates to the sides of the interceptor. In case that the grenade-countermeasures miss or that a threat is launched from a closer proximity (but still detected by the radar in time), the active armor takes over. It is designed to defeat threats within a distance of 6 to 15 metres from the vehicle. The active armor consists of 200 x 200 mm modules with a thickness of 100 mm. Each active armor tile includes a sensor, a layer of metal fragments/pellets, a layer of explosives, a microwave fuze and it's own electronics. The total weight is less than 15 kilograms, the reaction time is less than 150 miliseconds. For one firing action to defeat a threat, between two and four active armor modules are detonated. Due to the large amount of fragments used in both the grenade interceptors aswell as in the active armor, Scudo proves to be extremely dangerous to nearby infantry.
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MihoshiK said:
Then that dart is what, 1.10 - 1.20 meters long? Damn son.

Also, that split flash channel for ignition looks funky.
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ASCALON (canon) — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org fr.wikipedia.org

The ASCALON gun uses telescoped ammunition, this allows a significant gain in compactness, the length of a telescoped ammunition of 140 mm not exceeding 1.3 m against more than 1.5 m for ammunition in two loads of the same caliber
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Jon Hawkes on Twitter has a good thread about the challenges of replenishing 130/140mm tank gun rounds in the field. I think the idea of making the autoloader "magazines" modular and field-swappable might make sense. Reloading a tank could become more like reloading an MLRS launcher -- pop a door in the top armor, remove the empty mag, then reload a full one.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542155388279218178
View: https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1542155388279218178


KF-51 is already approaching this idea, given the ability to swap a loader module with a loitering munition launcher module, and the fact that said LM module requires movable top armor panels to fire its payload.

Admittedly, this does add its own issues. What do you do if you have a partially empty loader module, frex? How do you recover/recycle the empty modules, since they are probably too complex to expend? Etc.
 
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TomS said:
Jon Hawkes on Twitter has a good thread about the challenges of replenishing 130/140mm tank gun rounds in the field. I think the idea of making the autoloader "magazines" modular and field-swappable might make sense. Reloading a tank could become more like reloading an MLRS launcher -- pop a door in the top armor, remove the empty mag, they reload a full one.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542155388279218178
View: https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1542155388279218178


KF-51 is already approaching this idea, given the ability to swap a loader module with a loitering munition launcher module, and the fact that said LM module requires movable top armor panels to fire its payload.

Admittedly, this does add its own issues. What do you do if you have a partially empty loader module, frex? How do you recover/recycle the empty modules, since they are probably too complex to expend? Etc.
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I really see the task of swapping these tank magazines as a job for the first humanoid robots to undertake, or at least supervise and deal with any hang ups that the automation cant resolve. how the Robots will feel about this, I dont know.

Part spent magazines, I dont see the problem, you still swap the entire mag, assuming reloads are available and based on all the other vehicles being well stocked. the reloading of the mags takes place another km or so behind the front.

Especially when we talk of revenge fire, then this fire could come from the best placed asset, not necessarily the tank under fire.
 
Fluff said:
I really see the task of swapping these tank magazines as a job for the first humanoid robots to undertake,
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I'm not sure you need a humanoid robot, just a crane/manipulator on the resupply vehicle. Pull up alongside the tank and have the crew pop the roof hatches so the reloader can access the magazines. The manipulator swings in, uses machine vision to find the old magazine and a grabber to extract it and stack it on the truck, than they grab a full mag and swing it back into place. Crew buttons up and away you go.

Fluff said:
Part spent magazines, I dont see the problem, you still swap the entire mag, assuming reloads are available and based on all the other vehicles being well stocked. the reloading of the mags takes place another km or so behind the front.
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Yeah, this is true. And you can probably use humans (possibly with assist exoskeletons or just the same crane as before) to pull rounds out of partial mags and top up the others.
 
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www.telegraph.co.uk

Emmanuel Macron postpones meeting with Olaf Scholz amid ‘fury’ over Germany’s energy aid scheme

Decision to put off traditional government consultations signals growing divide between the EU states over energy and defence
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

Both sides decided it was "sensible" to postpone the talks to January.

In private, however, the language was less diplomatic.

"The French are really pissed off with the Germans, especially Scholz. They aren't saying it in public but they are furious in private," said a European source.

"The Germans are doing what the French are often accused of: making decisions without consulting its partners to serve their interests.”

On the French side, the list of grievances includes Berlin’s decision to spend much of an additional €100 billion in military spending on off-the-shelf US weapons, rather than new EU defence projects to boost capacity at home, which France has been pushing for.

Macron criticises Germany's energy support scheme​

One French government official cited joint projects — including the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) fighter jet and the Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) tank — as areas where progress has been lacking. By comparison, the UK is pressing ahead with its next-generation combat aircraft, Tempest.
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An study for Future MBT upgrades and maybe the development of one which would have Spain, sweden, Italy and Germany in it. It could become the alternative of MGCS but that would be far in the Future as it of right now IS No threat for it

Funding & tenders

The Funding and Tenders Portal is the single entry point (the Single Electronic Data Interchange Area) for applicants, contractors and experts in funding programmes and procurements managed by the European Commission.
ec.europa.eu ec.europa.eu
 
Euro projects only work out when Germans allow French to make stuff on the German dime , but in case of a Tank French do not have much to offer except an alternative cannon ,so Germans might not be willing to bend much to French wishes when they hold all the cards and French have none.
 
Ce son
Mr.T said:
Euro projects only work out when Germans allow French to make stuff on the German dime , but in case of a Tank French do not have much to offer except an alternative cannon ,so Germans might not be willing to bend much to French wishes when they hold all the cards and French have none.
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These are therefore German projects and not European ones. As for the Leopard 2, it is undoubtedly a good tank.

The French will do without the contribution of the Germans since they do not want that of France. But I assure you, they have something other than a cannon.
 
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euro-sd.com

Main Ground Combat System (MGCS): A Status Report

In 2018, France and Germany agreed to jointly develop a successor to their respective main battle tanks (MBTs), the Leclerc and the Leopard 2.
euro-sd.com euro-sd.com
csm_MGCS_front_bodytext_9be3c180cc.png
Notional MGCS family of combat and support vehicles. (Photo: Hensoldt=
BMVg-1A.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg)
BMVg-1B.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg/German MoD)
 
jsport said:
euro-sd.com

Main Ground Combat System (MGCS): A Status Report

In 2018, France and Germany agreed to jointly develop a successor to their respective main battle tanks (MBTs), the Leclerc and the Leopard 2.
euro-sd.com euro-sd.com
csm_MGCS_front_bodytext_9be3c180cc.png
Notional MGCS family of combat and support vehicles. (Photo: Hensoldt=
BMVg-1A.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg)
BMVg-1B.jpg
Notional composition of a multi-vehicle MGCS team. (Photo: BMVg/German MoD)
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I’m liking the, what looks like, hypersonic missile launching platform.
 
The idea of a family of main armoured vehicles has not gone too well for the Russians but the Germans may have more luck.
If France, Germany and Italy make a successful family of vehicles the UK should buy them off the shelf.
 

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