European MALE saga - EuroMALE, MALE 2020, MALE RPAS

[hesham]

Hi,

The Eurpean Defence Agency official have revealed plans for
the development of a new long endurance UAV to meet both
civil and military requirements.

 

[CammNut]

At Paris, the defence ministries of France, Germany and Spain announced plans to develop a modular family of jet-powered unmanned aircraft based on EADS's "Advanced UAV", which apparently is this...

 

[flateric]

EADS newest UAV family from CammNut post (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1970.msg17549.html#msg17549) comes to MAKS...

 

[flateric]

tails that didn't fit...

 

[Matej]

The latest UAS from EADS has its name - Talarion.

 

[Matej]

Still alive but still without the customer.

 

[red admiral]

Still alive but still without the customer.

I'm not really surprised. It seems to be a bad and expensive way of meeting MALE requirements. Trying to be marketed in the UK for Scavenger requirement but doesn't have a hope in hell.

A few more pictures from RAF Waddington a few weeks ago.

 

[red admiral]

pictures

 

[Matej]

http://qalaat.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/grandes-manoeuvres-francaises-autour-du-predator/

 

[Matej]

Mantis vs. Talarion

http://goo.gl/PlK3b

BAE Systems and Dassault Aviation have signed a memorandum of understanding to jointly design, develop and produce a medium altitude long endurance (MALE) unmanned aircraft system (UAS) for the United Kingdom and France.

The memorandum of understanding will enable the two companies to establish a framework under which they may jointly pursue this long term business opportunity, BAE Systems said in a statement.

The agreement follows the United Kingdom and French Governments agreement at the Anglo-French Summit in November 2010 to collaborate on the next generation MALE UAS to meet the requirements of both countries.

BAE Systems and Dassault Aviation have already completed a joint MALE UAS feasibility study for the United Kingdom and French Governments. This study has given both companies the confidence to move to the next stage of developing a joint proposal that will harness the UAS capabilities of both BAE Systems and Dassault Aviation, the statement continued.

Kevin Taylor, Managing Director Military Air & Information at BAE Systems said: “A successful BAE Systems/Dassault Aviation solution will ensure that the UK and France maintain their status as leading providers of aerospace capability. It will also ensure that both countries get the best return on the investment they have made in state-of-the-art technologies and UASs. We have a strong team in place that is ready to develop the future frontline UAS capability required by both the UK and France.”

Eric Trappier, Executive Vice President International at Dassault Aviation also commented: “BAE Systems and Dassault Aviation's joint experience and proven capabilities, together with an efficient co-operation process, allow us to offer a MALE UAS that will provide the UK and France with a cost-effective intelligent autonomous exploitation system to meet both countries’ military requirements to schedule and within the budgetary constraints under which both governments will operate in future. We look forward to a swift development go-ahead decision from the two governments soon.”

BAE Systems has developed several unmanned aerial systems, including the Herti and Mantis. The latter has cost BAE Systems 100 million pounds to develop. Dassault, on the other hand, is working on the nEUROn UAV with several European partners.

Meanwhile, EADS is also working an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that could rival the BAE Systems/Dassault offering. The European company has held talks with France, Spain and Germany on developing the Talarion aircraft.

In mid-January EADS chief executive officer Louis Gallois warned against the existence of two competing MALE UAV programmes in Europe while affirming EADS’s intention to continue development of its self-financed Talarion. He said European nations should ‘make a choice’ about their future MALE UAV capability and described how the co-existence of Talarion and Mantis programmes would be a ‘risk’.

EADS confirmed that it had offered up Talarion in response to an invitation to tender for the UK’s ‘Scavenger’ ISTAR UAV requirement.

 

[Matej]

In its latest configuration it finally looks nice!

 

[muttbutt]

Alenia displayed this version of the EUROMALE 2020 a couple of days ago. Pic courtesy of Alenia's twitter.

 

[Reaper]

and it continues:

Partners Agree Configuration of European MALE RPAS
"However, the disclosure that the new system will be a twin-turboprop has discounted the jet-powered Talarion from the effort."

http://www.uasvision.com/2017/08/03/partners-agree-configuration-of-european-male-rpas/

Is there are separete EURO Male topic or could we adapt this?

 

[Jemiba]

... Is there are separete EURO Male topic or could we adapt this?

At most this one, where EURO Male was already mentioned
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1970.msg249649.html#msg249649

 

[red admiral]

Hhhmmmm

You've really got to respect the balls of these companies to completely rip off the UK IP that was shared under the previous UK-FR agreement.

 

[mrmalaya]

Agreed. They will eventually produce Mantis, over a decade after BAE saw the need, designed and tested the thing.

 

[Reaper]

So the article says that they want to do a turbo-prop, like the hammerhead from Leonardo and you derive from that Dassault, who teamed up with BAe on Mantis/Telemos will steal the BAe IP because it was also a turbo prop?

 

[mrmalaya]

My observation is more along these lines: BAE created Mantis for several reasons but with the UK MALE requirement in mind.

It then brought Mantis to the table for the French to work on with Telemos which quickly died when the French left that table to work with Germany (at first) on this programme...

...which will I'm sure end up being remarkably like Mantis - if only because form follows function (if I'm being generous).

 

[Reaper]

Form follows function and when there are similar requirements and similar technologies available it leads to similar configurations!

 

[red admiral]

So the article says that they want to do a turbo-prop, like the hammerhead from Leonardo and you derive from that Dassault, who teamed up with BAe on Mantis/Telemos will steal the BAe IP because it was also a turbo prop?

The picture shows a configuration identical to Mantis...

There are plenty of alternative and better configurations for twin turboprop MALEs

 

[bipa]

The picture shows a Piaggio Hammerhead.
http://www.air-cosmos.com/le-drone-hammerhead-reprend-les-vols-97387
Beyond the twin turboprops, the configuration is quite different from Mantis.

 

[red admiral]

I meant this one which was released recently.

It even appears to be carrying PWIVs

 

[galgot]

The picture shows a Piaggio Hammerhead.
http://www.air-cosmos.com/le-drone-hammerhead-reprend-les-vols-97387
Beyond the twin turboprops, the configuration is quite different from Mantis.

Yes because it's derived from the Avanti II. had they started from an all new airframe, it would have been again different I suppose.
Beside, wonder if they have done something for the noise. An Avanti is very noisy. Have one passing over my place regularly, much more noisy than other turbos...

 

[muttbutt]

The EuroMALE is now an official PESCO project and the Czech Republic has signed on.

European Medium Altitude Long
Endurance Remotely Piloted
Aircraft Systems – MALE RPAS
(Eurodrone)
Germany, Czechia, Spain, France,
Italy

The objective is a common use of the system in dedicated areas (e.g.
operational testing & evaluation, logistics, training, exercises) of a newly
developed, operationally relevant, affordable and sovereign European military
capability for the next-generation of MALE RPAS, providing, by 2025,
enhanced overall value compared to existing systems.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/37028/table-pesco-projects.pdf

 

[kagemusha]

Leonardo filed a patent for a tailless version of the EUROMALE that Alenia displayed some years ago.

US20190092448A1 - Tail-less unmanned aerial vehicle - Google Patents

An aerial vehicle includes a fuselage situated at the center and a main wing body having a pair of half-wings extending on transversely opposite sides of the fuselage. Each half-wing includes an orientable horizontal surface or plane, which acts as an aerodynamic control, and a fixed winglet.

patents.google.com

Do you have more information about this project?

 

[TomcatViP]

118M$ more to pursue development and the mad Quest for an ITAR-Free design*:

Eurodrone effort gets $118M funding boost, updated production timeline

The Eurodrone project to build a twin-turboprop aircraft —in both an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance version and a battlefield version — aims to wean Europe off its reliance on U.S. and Israeli UAVs.

www.defensenews.com

*Countries that are looking for such products will have an increased number of option in the future, probably for cheaper (China, Israel, Turkey, the UAE...). It is flabbergasting to see that delays are extended and loads of precious defense budget money continues to poor in old men political fantasms irrelevant to the present and future Europe strategic endeavor while young soldier's flesh kept being exposed without much empathy beyond a défilé.

 

[jsport]

Airbus: Eurodrone project ready for takeoff – as soon as the contract is signed

“We have the green light from Germany, from Italy and from France, and we are in the waiting phase, basically every day now, on Spain,” one company executive said.

www.defensenews.com

 

[jsport]

Germany to operate armed UAVs: too little too late?

Germany’s new government has endorsed the arming of uninhabited aerial vehicles in its coalition agreement. The decision should only be seen as a first step in the acquisition of additional UAV strike capabilities, argue Franz-Stefan Gady and Oskar Glaese.

www.iiss.org

 

[flateric]

This is already third publically revealed iteration of EuroMALE RPAS since 2018 (not counting EADS MALE evoilution).
I didn't notice when it got ASW role as well.

 

[red admiral]

Has it got permanent external fuel tanks now as well?

 

[flateric]

This is already third publically revealed iteration of EuroMALE RPAS since 2018 (not counting EADS MALE evoilution).
I didn't notice when it got ASW role as well.

...and now it's gone from Airbus site

 

[Voltzz]

Interesting potential payload exhibited on this model of the #Eurodrone at the @MBDAGroup stand at #ParisAirShow.,, pic.twitter.com/N074NYedh8

— Gareth Jennings (@GarethJennings3) June 19, 2023

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1670711544856944642

Model of EuroMale with new payload shown at Paris Airshow
Could be a Synthetic Aperture Radar. But then why is the model at the MBDA stand?

 

[timmymagic]

Could be a Synthetic Aperture Radar. But then why is the model at the MBDA stand?

Brimstone and Enforcer beneath the wings?

 

[Voltzz]

Could be a Synthetic Aperture Radar. But then why is the model at the MBDA stand?

Brimstone and Enforcer beneath the wings?

I think its especially interesting that it is armed when you consider that you normally wouldnt arm a SAR, GMTI, or AEW plane. Maybe that implies that the large payload is not fixed but just a mission module.

There are also some more new picture with a diverse set of munitions from Paris Air Show:

Interessanti nuove immagini dell'#Eurodrone in diverse configurazioni.
Notare che anche nel video italiano, a cura di @Leonardo_IT, il velivolo appare armato.
Scontato, direbbe chiunque al di fuori dell'Italia... pic.twitter.com/rO30SJBZfL

— EdoardoBss (@EdoardoBss) June 19, 2023

View: https://twitter.com/EdoardoBss/status/1670786013373890561

 

[timmymagic]

Could be a Synthetic Aperture Radar. But then why is the model at the MBDA stand?

Brimstone and Enforcer beneath the wings?

I think its especially interesting that it is armed when you consider that you normally wouldnt arm a SAR, GMTI, or AEW plane. Maybe that implies that the large payload is not fixed but just a mission module.

There are also some more new picture with a diverse set of munitions from Paris Air Show:

Molto interessante ma ancora troppo spartano anche per essere un mockup...

— EdoardoBss (@EdoardoBss) June 19, 2023

View: https://twitter.com/EdoardoBss/status/1670830264556179457#m

Looks like Brimstone, Akeron LP and MBDA BANG?

 

[Scott Kenny]

118M$ more to pursue development and the mad Quest for an ITAR-Free design*:

Eurodrone effort gets $118M funding boost, updated production timeline

The Eurodrone project to build a twin-turboprop aircraft —in both an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance version and a battlefield version — aims to wean Europe off its reliance on U.S. and Israeli UAVs.

www.defensenews.com

*Countries that are looking for such products will have an increased number of option in the future, probably for cheaper (China, Israel, Turkey, the UAE...). It is flabbergasting to see that delays are extended and loads of precious defense budget money continues to poor in old men political fantasms irrelevant to the present and future Europe strategic endeavor while young soldier's flesh kept being exposed without much empathy beyond a défilé.

Makes sense if you want to export it. Anything ITAR gives the US a veto on your foreign policy/foreign military sales.

Could be a Synthetic Aperture Radar. But then why is the model at the MBDA stand?

Brimstone and Enforcer beneath the wings?

I think its especially interesting that it is armed when you consider that you normally wouldnt arm a SAR, GMTI, or AEW plane. Maybe that implies that the large payload is not fixed but just a mission module.

We normally wouldn't arm a radar plane because historically those radars needed a large airframe to carry them, and the airframes they were deployed on were converted airlines that had no weapons capabilities.

But why wouldn't you arm a small SAR/GMTI radar plane, as it can spot targets for itself in all weather conditions at that point?

 

[timmymagic]

But why wouldn't you arm a small SAR/GMTI radar plane, as it can spot targets for itself in all weather conditions at that point?

Because that sort of sensor will be orbiting to cover a specific area from stand off, manoeuvering to effect a weapons release will change the coverage, but also any weapon that has the range to be useful would be so heavy it would cut into the platforms endurance significantly.

Basically keeping your expensive sensor out of harms way and on task is a far better use of resources.

 

[Scott Kenny]

But why wouldn't you arm a small SAR/GMTI radar plane, as it can spot targets for itself in all weather conditions at that point?

Because that sort of sensor will be orbiting to cover a specific area from stand off, manoeuvering to effect a weapons release will change the coverage, but also any weapon that has the range to be useful would be so heavy it would cut into the platforms endurance significantly.

Basically keeping your expensive sensor out of harms way and on task is a far better use of resources.

Unless your weapon has the range to hit targets from where it is, like most glide bombs? SDB has a 100+km range.

 

[timmymagic]

Unless your weapon has the range to hit targets from where it is, like most glide bombs? SDB has a 100+km range.

You'll get just over 100km from either SDB variant, but only from a very high altitude, high speed release. From a slow moving UAV at medium altitude you could halve that.

Realistically from a platform using SAR or GMTI to pick up targets you need the weapon to be powered, like Spear. But then the cost goes up dramatically...at that point in most circumstances you're better off handing the target to another platform. Particularly if its a moving/relocatable target (SDBII's range against moving targets is a lot less than against fixed.).

 

[Scott Kenny]

Unless your weapon has the range to hit targets from where it is, like most glide bombs? SDB has a 100+km range.

You'll get just over 100km from either SDB variant, but only from a very high altitude, high speed release. From a slow moving UAV at medium altitude you could halve that.

Realistically from a platform using SAR or GMTI to pick up targets you need the weapon to be powered, like Spear. But then the cost goes up dramatically...at that point in most circumstances you're better off handing the target to another platform. Particularly if its a moving/relocatable target (SDBII's range against moving targets is a lot less than against fixed.).

Granted, you'd want something like a modern AGM-130, but lighter weight. For a quick and dirty field mod, I was picturing either a 70mm or 5" rocket fitted to an SDB.

But isn't Predator and Reaper equippable with a Battlefield Surveillance radar of some type? The problem being that IIRC it replaces the EO eyeball. I could have sworn that they did arm the Predators with Longbow Hellfires when it was carrying a BSR.