Eurocopter EC 665 Tiger

[piko1]

so i have some questions it seams that there is no topic about the Tiger in here
yes there are some topics about the Tiger for instance :
PAH-2: alternatives to and evolution of the Tiger attack helicopterhttp://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,207.0/all.htmlFrench Attack Helicopters http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,975.0/all.html


but there are non for the actual Tiger and it's evolution and as a start i have some questions that i cant find answers to
1. on the picture the German Tiger UHT have some kind of extra armour around the cockpit any ideas what else are upgraded on the UHT's in Afghanistan ?

2. there was idea for mast-mounted radar from Thales for the Tiger is there any actual pictures of it

the picture is taken from here http://military-photos.livejournal.com/158443.html

 

[DWG]

Article on the ASGARD configuration for German Tigers in Afghanistan : http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsgerman-army-receives-first-four-asgard-tiger-helicopters

 

[Triton]

http://youtu.be/q_BSP1_OKDQ

 

[Triton]

http://youtu.be/-pTqEdnpkho

 

[helmutkohl]

heres some story about how a French Tiger helicopter rescued a down Gazelle pilots

VIDEO. Opération Barkhane. "Ils se sont crashés !" : images et récit du sauvetage de l'équipage de la Gazelle à bord de laquelle se trouvait cette nuit de juin 2019 le caporal-chef Maxime Blasco

Cette nuit de mi-juin 2019 au Mali, un hélicoptère des forces françaises s’écrase en pleine zone de combats. L’équipage du Tigre qui le suit décide alors de se porter au secours des trois militaires au sol… Le caporal-chef Maxime Blasco, 34 ans, du 7e bataillon de chasseurs alpins de Varces, tué...

www.francetvinfo.fr

unfortunately or fortunately to recreate the rescue scene, they used some toy figures.
since the Tiger doesnt have an internal cabin (I think only the mi-24 and 28 does?)
the gazelle crew hung on the outside. which sounds quite dangerous

 

[FighterJock]

heres some story about how a French Tiger helicopter rescued a down Gazelle pilots

VIDEO. Opération Barkhane. "Ils se sont crashés !" : images et récit du sauvetage de l'équipage de la Gazelle à bord de laquelle se trouvait cette nuit de juin 2019 le caporal-chef Maxime Blasco

Cette nuit de mi-juin 2019 au Mali, un hélicoptère des forces françaises s’écrase en pleine zone de combats. L’équipage du Tigre qui le suit décide alors de se porter au secours des trois militaires au sol… Le caporal-chef Maxime Blasco, 34 ans, du 7e bataillon de chasseurs alpins de Varces, tué...

www.francetvinfo.fr

unfortunately or fortunately to recreate the rescue scene, they used some toy figures.
since the Tiger doesnt have an internal cabin (I think only the mi-24 and 28 does?)
the gazelle crew hung on the outside. which sounds quite dangerous

They can strap the downed crew onto the stub wings, much like what the UK Army did with the Apache during the war in Afghanistan. About the Mi-28, they do have a small compartment to the rear of the stub wings to rescue downed crew.

 

[yasotay]

@helmutkohl - thank you for sharing that. I have seen that sort of thing more than I care to. In the U.S. Army, Apache aircrew now have "D" ring clips on their flight vest and practice hooking themselves on the outside of the aircraft. It is called a "Spur Ride". There are several cases over the last 20 years of Apache's landing to pick up injured soldiers, who are put in the co-pilot/gunner seat and the co-pilot will latch himself to the outside. This was done because there were no lift aircraft near and it was unlikely the soldier would survive waiting for a MEDEVAC aircraft. I suspect that a good search will find that this has been done by most helicopter forces supporting ground troops.

 

[TomcatViP]

Amazing that this simple D-ring would have not made it through allies. I hope we will ear more on that.

 

[helmutkohl]

something like this?

after seeing this I'm now a bit more appreciative of the extra cabin space the Mi-28 has (was not much of a Mi-28 fan tbh, and preferred its Kamov cousin)

although it looks like quite difficult for an adult to fit in.

 

[FighterJock]

something like this?

after seeing this I'm now a bit more appreciative of the extra cabin space the Mi-28 has (was not much of a Mi-28 fan tbh, and preferred its Kamov cousin)

although it looks like quite difficult for an adult to fit in.

The Mi-28 compartment looks much smaller than I imagined it would be.

 

[batigol]

How is the rescued person supposed to enter the Mi-28's compartment without being roasted by the turbine exhaust?

 

[CJGibson]

In a situation where a goolie chit won't be much use, I think I'd hang on to, or get myself into, anything that's going up and away!

As for the exhaust, hopefully the IR suppression system has cooled it sufficiently. Anyone have any info on exhaust temps?

Also...I wonder why the Havoc's exhausts point down while the Wildcat, Apache, Tiger, Blackhawk and Hind (where fitted) point up?

Chris

 

[yasotay]

The exhaust is likely cooled enough for you to be able to endure it long enough to hope into the almost as warm electronic equipment space (as it appears to be to me). I suspect the space is more for the electricians and such to be able to get to all the electronics back there, more so than a specific space for the unfortunate. It does make a nice place for all of the aircrew incidentals to accumulate while on mission (helmet bag, toothbrush, etc.).

The direction of the exhaust is really dependent on what type of tactics you expect to use in combat. If you recall the H-60's and H-64 originally had suppressors that pointed mostly down, although not as drastic as Mi-28. At least the exhaust was pushed down by rotor wash. RAH-66 exhaust was ejected out the bottom of the tail boom. This is done if you expect to fly in close proximity to the ground (Nap of the Earth) to avoid nasty guided missiles and such. Most of the western helicopters have spent the last couple of decades in combat with AK's, RPG's, and the occasional MANPAD. This tends to drive you to fly higher, so you turn the exhaust up so as not to give the occasional MANPAD a big target to shoot.

 

[CJGibson]

Thanks. maybe not too late for GSATH!

Chris

 

[TomcatViP]

As a complement, I would say that at low alt flight, the ground effect makes the airflow from the rotor compress immediately under the disc then expands with a lot of recirculation (growing vortex) ; hence, I guess, a better result to cool down hot exhausts. At alt, there is no such overpressure and expansion. Blowing exhausts through the disc rotor is then a better way to mix hot gases.

 

[flateric]

The Mi-28 compartment looks much smaller than I imagined it would be.

It's bigger that it may seem, but I doubt anyone will survive there for a long due to exhausts temp and fumes

 

[helmutkohl]

The Mi-28 compartment looks much smaller than I imagined it would be.

It's bigger that it may seem, but I doubt anyone will survive there for a long due to exhausts temp and fumes

alright so it really isn't intentionally designed as an emergency cabin like some publications claim.
its an electronics compartment thats spatious enough for you to go inside during maintenance

 

[flateric]

It's intentionally designed for that. The question is would it be ever used in real life.

 

[yasotay]

It's intentionally designed for that. The question is would it be ever used in real life.

I suspect the answer is yes. Given the choice of five minutes of heat, noise, and fumes (long enough at least to get away), or meeting the people you were trying to kill, I am comfortable saying most crew would elect the discomfort.

 

[Purpletrouble]

As a complement, I would say that at low alt flight, the ground effect makes the airflow from the rotor compress immediately under the disc then expands with a lot of recirculation (growing vortex) ; hence, I guess, a better result to cool down hot exhausts. At alt, there is no such overpressure and expansion. Blowing exhausts through the disc rotor is then a better way to mix hot gases.

Presumably there is a thrust aspect to this exhaust sonce it has to be turned (equal and opposite and all that) plus that blowing directly into the rotor disk risks changing the aero distribution over the blade further.

 

[TomcatViP]

Crash report (enclosed - in fr) about the 2019 incident that killed 13 French soldiers in Mali when one Tiger and a Cougar collided in flight.

A loss of SA is identified as the cause of the tragic loss. I guess that the intense bush fire on the ground that both helicopters orbited and the pitch dark night that day are for nothing in this tragedy (NVG).

 

[Grey Havoc]

Berlin and Paris in crisis talks to bring fighter jet project back on track

Germany and France have launched a new effort to resolve an impasse over the development of a joint fighter jet, Europe's biggest defence project that has sparked tensions between Berlin and Paris, security and industry sources said on Wednesday.

mobile.reuters.com

A planned update for the Franco-German Tiger combat helicopter, costing more than 5.5 billion euros, is another bone of contention.

France is keen on the modernisation, whereas Germany is digging in, with some parts of the military not wanting the upgrade at all given the low operational readiness of the Airbus helicopter, sources told Reuters.

 

[GTX]

With the recent Australian Land 4503 decision to replace their Tigers with Apaches I understand Airbus is concerned this will start others such as Spain and Germany to do likewise.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Berlin and Paris in crisis talks to bring fighter jet project back on track

Germany and France have launched a new effort to resolve an impasse over the development of a joint fighter jet, Europe's biggest defence project that has sparked tensions between Berlin and Paris, security and industry sources said on Wednesday.

mobile.reuters.com

A planned update for the Franco-German Tiger combat helicopter, costing more than 5.5 billion euros, is another bone of contention.

France is keen on the modernisation, whereas Germany is digging in, with some parts of the military not wanting the upgrade at all given the low operational readiness of the Airbus helicopter, sources told Reuters.

Wait, that € 5.5 billion figure is for the whole upgrade program is it?

 

[FighterJock]

Berlin and Paris in crisis talks to bring fighter jet project back on track

Germany and France have launched a new effort to resolve an impasse over the development of a joint fighter jet, Europe's biggest defence project that has sparked tensions between Berlin and Paris, security and industry sources said on Wednesday.

mobile.reuters.com

A planned update for the Franco-German Tiger combat helicopter, costing more than 5.5 billion euros, is another bone of contention.

France is keen on the modernisation, whereas Germany is digging in, with some parts of the military not wanting the upgrade at all given the low operational readiness of the Airbus helicopter, sources told Reuters.

Wait, that € 5.5 billion figure is for the whole upgrade program is it?

Five Billion Euros to upgrade the Tiger attack helicopter? That is what I would call expensive.

 

[TomcatViP]

Well, it gets even worst when divided by their actual flying time...

 

[Volkodav]

The Tiger has a compartment aft of the cockpit that you could fit in, pretty much all attack helicopters do. The thing is its for maintenance access so in no way certified for carrying passengers, in all probability for safety and risk reasons, something that the Russians seem less concerned about than most.

 

[RavenOne]

Happy 30th, Joyeux anniversaire / alles gute Geburtstag

The Tiger combat helicopter: Three decades of flight, and many more to come

The Tiger celebrates the 30th anniversary of its first flight. The programme has achieved many milestones since 27 April 1991, and is about to take it to the next level with the MkIII modernisation.

www.airbus.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Progress in system upgrade with an hardened GPS and IFF interrogator ready to fielded.
Demonstration also of the Thales 68mm laser guided rocket.

EXTO terminée pour le Tigre standard 2 
 - FOB - Forces Operations Blog

L'expérimentation technico-opérationnelle (EXTO) du standard 2 de l'hélicoptère Tigre vient de s'achever, annonçait ce matin le groupement aéromobilité de la Section technique de l'armée de Terre (GAMSTAT). Une étape majeure qui sera suivie des premières livraisons en 2022.

www.forcesoperations.com

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

fresh rumors
according defence24.pl news Germany is thinking about retirement all Tigers and order Viper or Apache Guardian

Amerykańskie śmigłowce zastąpią Tigery Bundeswehry? [KOMENTARZ]

Niemieckie ministerstwo obrony prowadzi rozmowy z producentami śmigłowców uderzeniowych AH-64E Apache Guardian i AH-1Z Viper dotyczące ich pozyskania w miejsce obecnie używanych śmigłowców Tiger, których gotowość operacyjną Bundeswehra ocenia jako katastrofalnie niską. Obecna informacja...

www.defence24.pl

 

[Deino]

fresh rumors
according defence24.pl news Germany is thinking about retirement all Tigers and order Viper or Apache Guardian

Amerykańskie śmigłowce zastąpią Tigery Bundeswehry? [KOMENTARZ]

Niemieckie ministerstwo obrony prowadzi rozmowy z producentami śmigłowców uderzeniowych AH-64E Apache Guardian i AH-1Z Viper dotyczące ich pozyskania w miejsce obecnie używanych śmigłowców Tiger, których gotowość operacyjną Bundeswehra ocenia jako katastrofalnie niską. Obecna informacja...

www.defence24.pl

I really don't know if I would call this site reliable or even trustworthy?

 

[Jemiba]

Isn't that just a case of "Betteridge's Law of Headlines" ?

 

[Archibald]

A far better source...

L'Allemagne songerait-elle à remplacer ses hélicoptères d'attaque Tigre par des AH-64E Apache américains? - Zone Militaire

"Pour le Tigre standard 3, il y a toute une série de négociations à conduire, en particulier avec Airbus pour la partie allemande. Mais là encore, du côté

www.opex360.com

Will Germany abandon the Airbus Tiger attack helicopter?

Germany could consider replacing the Airbus Tiger with the Boeing Apache attack helicopters, the French think-tank Mars reports.

www.aerotime.aero

Les hélicoptères d'attaque Tigre UHT allemands sont à nouveau cloués au sol - Zone Militaire

Deux ans après la perte d'un de leurs hélicoptères d'attaque UHT Tigre au Mali, les forces armées allemandes ont décidé à nouveau de clouer au sol leurs

www.opex360.com

 

[CJGibson]

Would they wait until there's clarification on how FARA or a future attack helicopter to replace Apache pans out? Or are the Tigers really...

Chris

 

[fightingirish]

fresh rumors
according defence24.pl news Germany is thinking about retirement all Tigers and order Viper or Apache Guardian

Amerykańskie śmigłowce zastąpią Tigery Bundeswehry? [KOMENTARZ]

Niemieckie ministerstwo obrony prowadzi rozmowy z producentami śmigłowców uderzeniowych AH-64E Apache Guardian i AH-1Z Viper dotyczące ich pozyskania w miejsce obecnie używanych śmigłowców Tiger, których gotowość operacyjną Bundeswehra ocenia jako katastrofalnie niską. Obecna informacja...

www.defence24.pl

Link (Paywall): https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air-warfare/premium-germany-shows-tentative-interest-apache
These rumours came first up in March 2020, before Covid19 implications hit the German Economy and well before the US election.

Spoiler: Be aware - My personal political opinion

I don' want to get here too political, but at that time in Q1 2020 I presumed, that Trump was at his height of this career as US POTUS and had a good chance wining his reelection. So, IMHO some German bureaucrats in the German DoD might have send out a letter of interest as a sign for good will towards the Trump administration during that time period.
Now I am quite sure, that the new German government will have any interest for a new attack helicopter in the foreseeable future.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Or are the Tigers really...

Good question. The grape vine has the Tiger as something of a disaster and the groundings don't paint a pretty picture but has it really come to calling it a day?

 

[Archibald]

Or are the Tigers really...

Good question. The grape vine has the Tiger as something of a disaster and the groundings don't paint a pretty picture but has it really come to calling it a day?

France seems pretty happy of its Tigers, notably in Africa. Don't forget Germany armed forces are a mess, somewhat - including maintenance rates. They have been so since the 90's....

 

[FighterJock]

Or are the Tigers really...

Good question. The grape vine has the Tiger as something of a disaster and the groundings don't paint a pretty picture but has it really come to calling it a day?

France seems pretty happy of its Tigers, notably in Africa. Don't forget Germany armed forces are a mess, somewhat - including maintenance rates. They have been so since the 90's....

France has no option but to go with the Tiger right now as they have no replacement in the pipeline, I last heard that France were working on developing an upgraded version of the Tiger along with Germany, but that was before this current news that Germany intends to replace it's Tigers with the Apache Guardian broke.

 

[Archibald]

Maybe it is not a matter of "having no option" but being truly satisfied with the type ? I should check the AdT Tiger maintenance / availability rates.

TBH, I'm shocked the NH-90 turned so bad, in Australia, France, Germany and elsewhere. I remember 25 years ago when it was to be "the helicopter of the future" beyond the Super Pumas / Caracals and the antiquated Pumas...

What went wrong with these two ? NH-90 first, and then Tiger ?

 

[FighterJock]

Maybe it is not a matter of "having no option" but being truly satisfied with the type ? I should check the AdT Tiger maintenance / availability rates.

TBH, I'm shocked the NH-90 turned so bad, in Australia, France, Germany and elsewhere. I remember 25 years ago when it was to be "the helicopter of the future" beyond the Super Pumas / Caracals and the antiquated Pumas...

What went wrong with these two ? NH-90 first, and then Tiger ?

The NH-90 has been another mess-up along with the Tiger. Where did it all go wrong for Eurocopter now part of Airbus?