Espana class Modernization proposal

[Tzoli]

I've just read this in the Battleships Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II book by William H. Garzke and Robert O. Dulin about a proposed modernization of the 2x Espana class battleships.
Does anybody know anything more about this project?

During 1934-1935, "pocket battleship" conversions of the two old dreadnoughts Jaime I and Espana (originally named Alfonso XIII) were contemplated. The radical conversion envisioned the installation of oil-fired boilers and the lengthening of the ship. A major rearrangement of the main battery would have resulted in the four 305mm turrets being positioned on the centreline. A new dual-purpose armament of 120mm guns was projected

also

By 1936, prior to the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, a fleet law including a more modest modernization of the old battleships was proposed. This would have included oil-fired boilers, improved internal subdivision, increased elevation for the main battery guns, more anti-aircraft guns and the installation of a modern gunfire-control system. The outbreak of the civil war prevented any of this from being accomplished.

 

[alexi]

Here's Jaime "modest" modernization hull found on google search. Author also include three Spanish sources and information about modernization proposals.

 

[Dilandu]

A major rearrangement of the main battery would have resulted in the four 305mm turrets being positioned on the centreline.

Interesting! I wonder, how complex it would be to accomplish?

 

[Dilandu]

Here's Jaime "modest" modernization hull found on google search. Author also include three Spanish sources and information about modernization proposals.

It seems that it's about earlier, 1920s modernization plans.

 

[Tzoli]

A major rearrangement of the main battery would have resulted in the four 305mm turrets being positioned on the centreline.

Interesting! I wonder, how complex it would be to accomplish?

I think somehow like the Frunze slow battlecruiser conversion

 

[Dilandu]

I think somehow like the Frunze slow battlecruiser conversion

A bit, albeit with Frunze it would be... more complicated; in her suggested refit, the turret were supposed to be moved along the length of the ship, changing the weight distribution on her keel. While in case of Espana, the turret would be moved from side to centerline, arguably lessening the stress.

 

[LouisXIV]

I always had a bit of a soft spot for these ships--but really how suitable for modernization were they? Seems that not much beyond perhaps oil firing and increasing gun elevation would have been worthwhile--that is to say it would have been better value to build (have built) a couple of new ships.

 

[awhalen61]

"A more ambitious plan to significantly improve the surviving ships' capabilities was proposed in the mid-1930s. The height of the wing turret barbettes was to be increased, improving their fields of fire and freeing up space around the turrets for a new secondary battery of 120 mm (4.7 in) Mk F dual-purpose guns. The ships were to carry twelve of the guns individually in open mounts; the casemates of the old secondary guns would be converted into more crew spaces. A new anti-aircraft battery of either ten 25 mm (1 in) or eight 40 mm (1.6 in) guns were to be fitted, the type would be determined by tests of their effectiveness. Other changes were to be made to improve fire-control systems, overhaul the machinery, and install anti-torpedo bulges.

Rodríguez González, Agustín Ramón (2018). "The Battleship Alfonso XIII (1913)". In Taylor, Bruce (ed.). The World of the Battleship: The Lives and Careers of Twenty-One Capital Ships of the World's Navies, 1880–1990. Barnsley: Seaforth Publishing. pp. 268–289.

If I recall, the total number of 120mm guns was going to be 12 single mounts, but i cannot find a source for that at the moment.

 

[Dilandu]

The height of the wing turret barbettes was to be increased, improving their fields of fire and freeing up space around the turrets for a new secondary battery of 120 mm (4.7 in) Mk F dual-purpose guns.

Hm! Very interesting! I wonder, though, how it would affect their stability? Would bulges be able to compensate for such additional upper weight?

 

[Tzoli]

The extra lenght might help somewhat

 

[Toryu]

Revista General de Marina.

 

[Tzoli]

Care to describe it's contents?
Placing the rangefinder closer to the muzzles isn't a great idea.

 

[vivaibiscotti]

any news about this project?

 

[Regg]

Hello!
I propose to see what the Spanish battleships could look like (from my point of view) in the event of a modernization.

 

[YourChair]

I found this link a bit ago, and I suppose here is the place to put it:

The Spanish Dreadnoughts of the "España" class on JSTOR

Rafael Fernández, Nicholas Mitiuckov, Kent Crawford, The Spanish Dreadnoughts of the "España" class, Warship International, Vol. 44, No. 1 (2007), pp. 63-114

www.jstor.org

Relevant section:

 

[ptdockyard]

I've just read this in the Battleships Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II book by William H. Garzke and Robert O. Dulin about a proposed modernization of the 2x Espana class battleships.
Does anybody know anything more about this project?

During 1934-1935, "pocket battleship" conversions of the two old dreadnoughts Jaime I and Espana (originally named Alfonso XIII) were contemplated. The radical conversion envisioned the installation of oil-fired boilers and the lengthening of the ship. A major rearrangement of the main battery would have resulted in the four 305mm turrets being positioned on the centreline. A new dual-purpose armament of 120mm guns was projected

also

By 1936, prior to the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, a fleet law including a more modest modernization of the old battleships was proposed. This would have included oil-fired boilers, improved internal subdivision, increased elevation for the main battery guns, more anti-aircraft guns and the installation of a modern gunfire-control system. The outbreak of the civil war prevented any of this from being accomplished.

I took Regg's drawing and modified it to the description here. Hope I did not step on toes here....

 

[1635yankee]

A major rearrangement of the main battery would have resulted in the four 305mm turrets being positioned on the centreline.

Interesting! I wonder, how complex it would be to accomplish?

I suspect the easiest way to do this would be to add a new section or sections to the hull strictly for the remounted turrets and the associated machinery.

 

[Regg]

I took Regg's drawing and modified it to the description here. Hope I did not step on toes here....

Hello! You have good skills in working with Photoshop, colleague!
The modified drawing shows difficulties with the placement of gun turrets in the diametrical plane.

 

[Regg]

I suspect the easiest way to do this would be to add a new section or sections to the hull strictly for the remounted turrets and the associated machinery.

In the background of the picture (under the image of the battleship "Jaime I") there is a silhouette of a modernized battleship which I consider the best option for these dreadnoughts.
Later I will try to show his view not in silhouette.

 

[1635yankee]

I suspect the easiest way to do this would be to add a new section or sections to the hull strictly for the remounted turrets and the associated machinery.

In the background of the picture (under the image of the battleship "Jaime I") there is a silhouette of a modernized battleship which I consider the best option for these dreadnoughts.
Later I will try to show his view not in silhouette.

Thank you

 

[ptdockyard]

I took Regg's drawing and modified it to the description here. Hope I did not step on toes here....

Hello! You have good skills in working with Photoshop, colleague!
The modified drawing shows difficulties with the placement of gun turrets in the diametrical plane.

Thanks. It was just playing around in Microsoft Paint

 

[ptdockyard]

I suspect the easiest way to do this would be to add a new section or sections to the hull strictly for the remounted turrets and the associated machinery.

In the background of the picture (under the image of the battleship "Jaime I") there is a silhouette of a modernized battleship which I consider the best option for these dreadnoughts.
Later I will try to show his view not in silhouette.

Eagerly awaiting seeing what those silhouettes really look like

 

[Nick Sumner]

Holy mackerel that would be a big job though! You've gone from en echelon turrets to centreline and cut the ship in half to lengthen it, so the hogging and sagging stresses are completely different. As well as replacement of the machinery, fire control etc. In all seriousness, outside a scenario where new construction is banned by treaty, the cost of doing this would kill the project simply because a brand new ship would be less expensive. The cheaper alternative is 'do a Vanguard' - simply place the armament in a different hull.

 

[1635yankee]

Holy mackerel that would be a big job though! You've gone from en echelon turrets to centreline and cut the ship in half to lengthen it, so the hogging and sagging stresses are completely different. As well as replacement of the machinery, fire control etc. In all seriousness, outside a scenario where new construction is banned by treaty, the cost of doing this would kill the project simply because a brand new ship would be less expensive. The cheaper alternative is 'do a Vanguard' - simply place the armament in a different hull.

I don't know how capable the Spanish shipbuilding and steel industries were. A new build may simply be beyond their capabilities.

 

[Tzoli]

The Spanish shipyards were intended to be upgraded in the 1930's and 40's because Franco envisioned a great new Spanish Armada with the help of the Italians. 4 modified Littorios to be built in Spain, at least 2 at a time and the other two maybe in Italy, new 16.000ton heavy and light cruisers as well as destroyers.
But as Italy entered the war these dreams got cancelled.
And there were the indigenous projects: Destroyers and cruisers with the re-use of the Espana turrets or the German 28cm triple ones.

 

[ptdockyard]

If I measure right the "new" silhouette in the background is about 550ft.

If this is a "Vanguard" it would only have 6-12". Possibly new triple turrets with the same guns?

Clearing out a 1/1200 build bay for this one......

Dave

 

[Regg]

Holy mackerel that would be a big job though! You've gone from en echelon turrets to centreline and cut the ship in half to lengthen it, so the hogging and sagging stresses are completely different. As well as replacement of the machinery, fire control etc.

As far as I remember exactly, such a modernization project (placing towers on the same line) was also planned in Spain in the mid-1930s.

Holy mackerel that would be a big job though! You've gone from en echelon turrets to centreline and cut the ship in half to lengthen it, so the hogging and sagging stresses are completely different. As well as replacement of the machinery, fire control etc.

Spain was not a party to the treaties on the limitation of military forces at sea: Washington (1922) and London (1930).
I agree with you - such a modernization project will be expensive. Moreover, the hulls of the ships were old - almost 20 years! It would be better to build new battleships according to this scheme (3 × 2 - 12 "- Spanish "pocket battleships" ). However, as you know, it is always cheaper to draw up projects than to implement these projects.

 

[Regg]

If I measure right the "new" silhouette in the background is about 550ft.

If this is a "Vanguard" it would only have 6-12". Possibly new triple turrets with the same guns?

I will finish work soon - very busy with other things.
I plan that the towers will remain the same.

 

[cattalonX]

 

[Tzoli]

Those are not related to the Espana class.

 

[Antonio]

Those are not related to the Espana class.

Exactly

Project 138 Heavy Cruiser

Un crucero para NUKITA: El proyecto 138 de España

El más ambicioso proyecto de crucero pesado anterior a la 2ª Guerra mundial no nació ni en Inglaterra, ni en Japón ni siquiera en EE.UU. Surgió en un lugar y momento inesperado. En la España devast…

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[cattalonX]

Those are not related to the Espana class.

this variant was planned to use the Espana class's turret

 

[Antonio]

this variant was planned to use the Espana class's turret

touché

 

[ptdockyard]

To keep this thread on task, I took a shot at removing the Espaná image fro the silhouette. The mainmast is probably not right and a holdover from the overlay.

Really like this so far…..

Dave G

 

[Regg]

Really like this so far…..

It worked out very well! You are ahead of me.

 

[Regg]

Later I will try to show his view not in silhouette.

I'm sorry for the late reply. There was a lot of work. Judging by the picture from PTDOCKYARD, many have been waiting for the fulfillment of my promise. Finally, I'm ready to show you the promised drawing.

Characteristics of the 1933 project (Regg):
Displacement, t: 18500 norm/19500 full;
Length, m: 164 (wl)/166 (max o.a.)x24x8.45 (max);
Machinery (similar to that installed on the Churruk type + added 2 boilers for reserve): 2 sets Parsons geared turbines. 2 shafts. S.H.P.: 42000 = 24 kts. Boilers: 6 of 3-drum type (Yarrow);
Armor: belt - same + 16 meters, deck - same + above shell magazines thickness increased to 100 mm, deck thickness above engine to 80mm;
Guns: 3x2-12 inch; 8x1-4 inch AA, mod.1917 (similar to that installed on the cruisers Principe Alfonso type); 8x1-2 pdr. pom-pom AA, Vickers; 6x1-12,7mm M.G., Vickers.
Torpedo tubes (21 inch, 6 abore water).

Here he is:

 

[ptdockyard]

No apologies necessary. The drawing is beautiful! Thank you very much! this surpasses my expectations from the silhouette.

The torpedo tubes are fixed, correct? I see them below the catapult.

Did you come up with armor, speed?

Looking forward to making this beauty for my fleet ( not to mold )

 

[Regg]

The torpedo tubes are fixed, correct? I see them below the catapult.

Did you come up with armor, speed?

Characteristics added to message # 36.

 

[ptdockyard]

So a question...is this amazing drawing :
-An interpretation of some proposal to rebuild these ships with 6-12"
-A variation of the same, perhaps like the one Tzoli described at the start
-A true "what if" that is a great looking ship but a personal design.

Just curious

Dave

 

[Regg]

So a question...is this amazing drawing :
-An interpretation of some proposal to rebuild these ships with 6-12"
-A variation of the same, perhaps like the one Tzoli described at the start
-A true "what if" that is a great looking ship but a personal design.

This is probably the case when the reconstruction was based on one of the options offered at the time, but with improvements coming from me .