EE Canberra, Evolution, Variants and Projects

[Pioneer]

I was thinking the other day, 'did the British ever think of, or look at a carrier-based variant of the English Electric Canberra light bomber'?

Does anyone know an answer to this?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[elmayerle]

*snicker* Did anyone catch the typo in the last paragraph of that book review? That's truly hilarious!!

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

*snicker* Did anyone catch the typo in the last paragraph of that book review? That's truly hilarious!!

I didn't know the Danube was that deep.......

 

[TinWing]

... a proposal for a carrier based EE. Canberra bomber, with folding wings outboard of the engines, was mooted for deployment aboard the RN.'s 1952 carrier proposal.
A mention of the design appears in a paragraph in the excellent 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy' by D.K. Brown and G. Moore, Chatham publishing.

"Rebuilding the Royal Navy" is a spectacular book for unbuilt RN projects, but sadly there isn't much concrete information about aircraft.

The 1952 carrier was pretty much the last chance for a RN platform big enough for a "strategic" bomber - and I use the term "strategic" very loosely.

 

[TinWing]

I was thinking the other day, 'did the British ever think of, or look at a carrier-based variant of the English Electric Canberra light bomber'?

It is equally easy to wonder why there weren't night fighter variants of the Canberra, or why English Electric didn't at least produce a swept wing prototype?

The truth is that the Canberra had the most advanced axial turboject engine of the day - the AJ65 or Avon - and a very conventional airframe that was hardly an advance on WWII technology.

 

[Archibald]

Canberra mk.12 project!
Nice picture at the beginning of "British secret projects - bombers-"
The Red-dean/AI-23 combo was so bulky that it was more efficient in a Canberra than in a supersonic aircraft.The red deans were fitted on the wingtips.
I think there was no gun pack...

 

[hesham]

Hi,

The first proposal to B3/45 specification by English Electric Co was
a single engined straight low-mid wing and it had a wing root intakes
and the engine was buried in the fuselage,it was powered by one
Rolls-Royce Avon turbojet.

 

[hesham]

A big surprise,

The Canberra project as 34-seat transport aircraft.



http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1958/1958%20-%200319.pdf

 

[Jemiba]

A proposal by Short Bros. for a VTOL conversion of the BAC Canberra, fitted
with 20 lift engines :
(From InterAvia 7/1958)

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is the English Electric Canberra as all-weather fighter project.


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958%20-%200231.html

 

[Weaver]

BSP - Bombers discusses a Canberra fighter project with Red Dean. The combination of Red Dean's (projected) performance plus the Canberra's ceiling gave it the best snap-up performance of ANY platform short of F.155T.

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't do it, eh?

 

[Pioneer]

I have always liked the prospect and potential of a long-range all-weather interceptor variant of the English Electric Canberra.
I have always thought that a long-range all-weather interceptor Canberra (designed and built jointly by Government Aircraft Factory (GAF) and English Electric) would have been ideal for the likes of the RAAF (as well as the RAF and RCAF) – what with its fighter-like maneuverability, its good speed, range and littoral endurance.
Its crew of 2-3 and room for a large and powerful air-search radar.
Fitted with either a Martin type rotary bomb bay arrangement containing 4-6 Aim-4 Falcon AAM’s or a trapeze launcher arrangement armed with 3-4 Red Top AAM’s.
The use of internal weapons carriage would have minimized drag = greater range.
Added to this armament could have been 2 x Aden 30mm cannons
It would have been a very economically and operationally good counter to the likes of the Indonesian (and Soviet) Tu-16 ‘Badger’ threat of the 1960’s.
A fine opportunity lost!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Jemiba]

"A fine opportunity lost!"
From Aeroplane Monthly 6/99:
When TSR.2 was cancelled a study was authorised, about a new variant of
the Canberra, with much enhanced capabilities, designated P.28 MOD.
Fitted with RR Spey engines, smaller span wings and the Ferranti radar developed
for the TSR.2, it would have offered capabilities for a variety of roles, with emphasis
on attack/counter-insurgency, but with the ability to carry anti-shiping or air-to-air
missiles, too.
Reminding the number of Canbera users, this type may well have been a best-seller !

 

[robunos]

"A fine opportunity lost!"

i've got some more info from another source, P.28, based on the B.8 airframe with a PR.9 nose housing a 'blue parrot' radar, pilot has opening canopy from PR.9, nav has ejection seat, span reduced by six feet each side by clipping wingtips, 500 gal tip tanks fitted.
Engines were to be 11,250 lb st RA24s, or lower powered RA29s, giving more range. max weight was to be 55,996 lb,with 23,294 lb fuel and 8,000 lb weapon load. Fuel could be traded for increased weapons load. Target penetration speed was to be 500 kt IAS.

there are also some images, but as the original source is an Ian Allen publication, i'm wary of posting them.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[yellowaster]

The original Canberra all-weather interceptor was the P.12. Based on a B(I)8 but using a PR.9 wing, complete with Avon RA.24s and powered ailerons. Had a nose monocoque and radome to accomodate AI.18. Primary armament was two Red Deans on wing-tips; secondary was a B(I)8 gun-pack in rear bomb-bay. For those troublesome high-altitude targets the gun-pack could be swapped for a Double Scorpion rocket pack. What a beast.

 

[JFC Fuller]

As I am sure everybody knows the Canberra B.1 was the un-built variant that was to be fitted with H2S MkIX /NBC. I am wondering if anybody has details of how the system was to be installed? I have always assumed that it would have been fitted in the nose much like it was on the Valiant and Vulcan, is this the case? If anybody has a graphic of this variant it would be great to see it.

Thank you in advance sealordlawrence.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Cutaway of the B.1 from Flight. Of course it doesn't show what's under the nose... But the B.1 was to have the H2S in the nose with the two nav/bomb/radar crew sitting on ejection seats behind the cockpit.

 

[smurf]

Sealordlawrence said

As I am sure everybody knows the Canberra B.1 was the un-built variant that was to be fitted with H2S MkIX /NBC.

Abraham Gubler said

the B.1 was to have the H2S in the nose with the two nav/bomb/radar crew sitting on ejection seats behind the cockpit.

Green & Cross Jet aircraft of the World 1955 says (p94)

The Canberra was designed initially as a two-seater with radar bombing aids, and the first four prototypes, designated Canberra B.1, were completed as two-seaters. ....... The fifth prototype embodied a revised fuselage nose for visual bomb-aiming and carried a third crew member.

Other later refs say the same.
G&C's book has a small picture of the first prototype VN799 with solid nose, in flight.

 

[smurf]

Flightglobal says it's a B.1, but I can't read the labels.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/militaryaviation1946-2006cutaways/default.aspx
I suspect it's an "interpretation"
The engines appear to be Nene's, which were only fitted to the second prototype, with production of a Nene powered version considered as an insurance against unavailability of Avons.
But it wasn't the Nene, but the radar bomb aiming, that made a Canberra a B.1

 

[Stargazer]

Flightglobal says it's a B.1, but I can't read the labels.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/militaryaviation1946-2006cutaways/default.aspx
I suspect it's an "interpretation"
The engines appear to be Nene's, which were only fitted to the second prototype, with production of a Nene powered version considered as an insurance against unavailability of Avons.
But it wasn't the Nene, but the radar bomb aiming, that made a Canberra a B.1

The engines are not RR Nene, but 100 Series Avon, which had can combustors. The axial compressor is clearly visible.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Good catch Smurf! So is the Flight Global drawing the planned production B.1?

No Smurf is most likely right about the two crew for the B.1. I was just going from memory about three crew for the B.1 from a good book (Stewart Wilson: Lincoln, Canberra and F-111 in Australian Service) about Canberra development which I think probably mentioned three crew in the context of the change from the radar to visual bombing configuration. In retrospect I think the book mentioned that the B.1 was two crew but the third was added in place of the HS2 in the re-configuration for production. Either way just working from susceptible memory not a reference in front of me.

 

[smurf]

The engines are not RR Nene, but 100 Series Avon, which had can combustors.

Yes, thanks for that. I'd forgotten that Canberra prototypes had the early Avons.

 

[alertken]

S.Ranson/R.Fairclough,English Electric A/C,Putnam,1987,P.157 has A.1 ripe for the chop, due industry inability to do its radar and the Medium Bombers' more or less concurrently. Just-in-time the Berlin Blockade began. US came up with MDAP and funded visual Canberra B.2. The gate guard at Salmesbury should be a statue of Stalin.

 

[Rickshaw]

I thought, I'd resurrect this thread because I've come across this drawing of what is claimed to be the proposed P.12 Interceptor version of the Canberra:

Does anybody have any better diagrams?

 

[Barrington Bond]

Your picture is not displaying?!

Regards,
Barry

 

[flateric]

yes, because cross-linking is prohibited
http://www.vectorsite.net/avcanbra_1_08.png

 

[yellowaster]

Here's a P.12 3-view

 

[Rickshaw]

The picture displays for me. ???

Anyway, thanks Yellowaster. I see it has alternative methods of hanging the Red Dean missiles off the wingtips - one inline the other below, rather similar to how the RAAF hung bombs off their Canberra's wingtips.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

Darn you Christopher Chant, making me believe there was fighter versions of Canberra!

 

[JFC Fuller]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the canberra and nuclear weapons. I have been looking to see which variants were made nuclear capable. Was the B.2 ever modified to carry Red beard or was it only ever the B.6/B(I).8 and later that had the nuclear capability?

Thank you in advance sealordlawrence.

 

[Spark]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the canberra and nuclear weapons. I have been looking to see which variants were made nuclear capable. Was the B.2 ever modified to carry Red beard or was it only ever the B.6/B(I).8 and later that had the nuclear capability?

Thank you in advance sealordlawrence.

Just a thought,

Rather like the later F 1-11 some one said it was considered at one time in the design stage that the cockpit section of the V-Bombers was from high altitude to have formed a emergency crew escape capsule?.

If that was true the B1 drawing appears to have a similar possible break line; so could this have been thought a common design possibility in the case of the Canberra?

 

[hesham]

"A fine opportunity lost!"
From Aeroplane Monthly 6/99:
When TSR.2 was cancelled a study was authorised, about a new variant of
the Canberra, with much enhanced capabilities, designated P.28 MOD.
Fitted with RR Spey engines, smaller span wings and the Ferranti radar developed
for the TSR.2, it would have offered capabilities for a variety of roles, with emphasis
on attack/counter-insurgency, but with the ability to carry anti-shiping or air-to-air
missiles, too.
Reminding the number of Canbera users, this type may well have been a best-seller !

Also from the same source ,which displayed by my dear Jemiba.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

from Aeroplane Monthly June 1999.

 

[flying-finn]

In 1945 English Electric made a proposal to use one large centrifugal engine, which would be specially designed and provide twice the power of any existing engine at that time.
3-view for this proposal is on attachment #1

After only a few months the design was changed to incorporate two new AJ.65 (later known as Avon) axial-flow turbojets, designed by Rolls-Royce.
3-view for this proposal is on attachment #2

 

[JFC Fuller]

According to the following link:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avcanbra_1.html

Some of the early proposals for the Canberra PR.9 included a substantially increased wingspan in addition to the RA.24 Avons but that 'this did not work out'. I was wondering if anybody has any details on these proposals or any idea where I might find more information?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Martin RB-57D with 108' span and 10,000 lbs J57s and and RB-57F with 122'6" span and 16,000 lbs TF33s plus two more 2,900 lbs J60s are the big wing Canberras. I would imagine any RAF/BAC work for a big wing Canberra would be based on these efforts.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Martin RB-57D with 108' span and 10,000 lbs J57s and and RB-57F with 122'6" span and 16,000 lbs TF33s plus two more 2,900 lbs J60s are the big wing Canberras. I would imagine any RAF/BAC work for a big wing Canberra would be based on these efforts.

I dont see why. The UK was more than capable of designing its own, it actually designed the Canberra in the first place you know.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I dont see why. The UK was more than capable of designing its own, it actually designed the Canberra in the first place you know.

The PR.9 was built from 1958-62 by Shorts. The RB-56D was in service in 1956 and the RB-56F had its first flight in June 63. So presumably the American big wing Canberras were well advanced of any British effort. Even if they had decided to re-invent the wheel they would have been influenced by the RB-57s in conception.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

multiple manufacturers who had worked with the Canberra design in various ways. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume that they would simply have gone to the US for assistance unless you can provide a source.[/quote]

Woah, retrospective national pride moment…

The point was and is that if you want to have an idea of what a big wing Canberra would be like then you can look to the RB-57D/F. There really aren’t that many ways you can make a wing wider and add more engine power to an aircraft. Even if the hypothetical ‘all UK’ big wing Canberra was ever designed it would have looked a lot like the American versions. Since this UK proposal came after the Americans were already flying and even replacing their big wing Canberras then the UK would have been inspired from that source, even if they wouldn’t admit it.

 

[Bailey]

According to Barry Jones, English Electric Canberra and Martin B-57, Crowood. "The ultra-high altitude potential of the Canberra had been realised from the Beginning".

With regard to the increase in span, Barry comments "When the designers got down to the detailed calculations, they realised that simply increasing the span would effect the aircrafts existing Mach trim and buffet limits. Consequently, the answer was considered to be a generous increase in the centre-section chord between the fuselage and engine nacelles, coupled with a slight increase in overall span".

Regards Bailey.