Scott Kenny
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 15 May 2023
- Messages
- 6,300
- Reaction score
- 5,147
you're welcome!thanks for the help i was wondering about that
you're welcome!thanks for the help i was wondering about that
Fascinating story from during the Cold War period, thanks for sharing .....This Is How North Korea Smuggled In 87 U.S. Scout Helicopters
We have all the details.nationalinterest.org
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.A channel of armour warfare
Preliminar tech info about the tank, Is in spanish. Sorry for that
One of the thins that he say, that the tank have a 4 crew turret with a 115 mm gun
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
With all the electronic gizmos these days, i would think it would be possible to accurately measure the gun calibre from the pictures seen?
Crew of 4 in the tank makes me think T-62 based. Which means 115mm gun.DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
With all the electronic gizmos these days, i would think it would be possible to accurately measure the gun calibre from the pictures seen?
Fair enough, I was only considering the turret.Just because it MAY be derived from a T-62 doesn't automatically make it still a 115mm cannon since they can obviously accommodate a larger 125mm barrel (see any number of T-62 upgrades marketed over the years).
The M-2020's barrel is also noticeably distinct from other more recent North Korean designs like the Songun-915, with the bore evacuator being in a different position along the barrel (somewhat closer to the turret) plus the likely sighting mechanism added at the tip of the barrel.
Plus the vehicle's overall dimensions, road wheels, hull shape (especially the front which extends further forward with a completely different slope), etc are also quite different. Calling this newer tank "T-62 based" at this point would be the equivalent to calling late-production T-72 or early T-90 tanks "T-62 based" since that family of tanks also descends from it....
What that even means? Various Chonma tank variants had completely new welded turrets for decades (plus new chassis with 6 wheels and so on).Fair enough, I was only considering the turret.
The turret is T62 based.
Well, the reason may be that Songun-915 was an attempt on a heavier, different tank more or less based on an incomplete t-72 TOT from the Soviet Union.DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
What that even means? Various Chonma tank variants had completely new welded turrets for decades (plus new chassis with 6 wheels and so on).
If anything, the new tank might be a descendant of the 125mm Songun-915, new chassis with 7 wheels, new welded turret housing the 125mm gun etc.
That's a really good point!There is nothing wrong with it anyway - while 115mm gun is weaker and much less accurate at extended ranges, it, on the other hand, can have long rods, just like 120 NATO. And for longer ranges, M2020 has those big ATGMs anyway.
They actually did, in 1988.North Korea never received transfer of technology for T-72 because it never got license for it in first place and they only got at least one example of it between 1985 and 1992 from Iran that captured it from Iraq during Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988 along possibly perhaps maybe T-80BV from Belarus in early 1990's.
Judging by periscopes&sights, Songun actually follows T-72 crew layout.All main battle tanks that North Korea has in active service do not have autoloader and have four crew members including Songun-ho that has 125mm smooth bore 2A46 cannon while do keep in mind if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.
Great irony of Soviet AT gun design that by far the longest complete round is actually the 100mm smoothbore - i.e. towed anti-tank guns.That's a really good point!
I'd rather have a 115mm gun with 750mm+ long rods rather than the ~500mm long rods out of the 125mm 2-piece ammo.
Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?North Korea never received transfer of technology for T-72 because it never got license for it in first place and they only got at least one example of it between 1985 and 1992 from Iran that captured it from Iraq during Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988 along possibly perhaps maybe T-80BV from Belarus in early 1990's.
All main battle tanks that North Korea has in active service do not have autoloader and have four crew members including Songun-ho that has 125mm smooth bore 2A46 cannon while do keep in mind if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.
Another is since Songun-915 has no autoloader thus has 4th crew member that is human loader hence no limit on length of APFSDS which Soviet and Russian main battle tanks have due to carousel autoloader limited by inner turret ring diameter which is not the case with Songun-ho because it is manually loaded along turret ring such as of T-62 that is far larger than T-72 and bigger than both M60 and M1 Abrams.
Longest APFSDS projectile for 115mm is 640mm and can penetrate 500mm at 2km.
Those antitank guided missiles mounted on right side of turret on swivel mount are Bulsae-5 that are clones of Russian 9M133 Kornet and it is possible components of fire control system of that weapon are integrated into commanders cupola sight which includes 1PN79 series thermal optics, laser range finder and illuminator.
From tankograd discord:
Basic size comparison in millimeters for:
hull (w/o fenders) and turret length(w/o cage armor, cannon, ERA), tank and turret height (w/o cupola, optics, sensors), hull height:
6750 / 2850 / 2220 / 650 / 1570 - Chonma-ho [T-62]
6910 /2540 / 2190 / 750 / 1440 - T-72A
6930 / 3210 / 3000 / ???? / ???? - M60A1
7300 / 3650 / 2430 / 810 / 1620 - Chonma-216
7230 / 3750 / 2780 / 900 / 1880 - Songun-915
8450 / 4650 / 2630 / 1100 / 1630 - M2020 ( second most conservative )
9200 / 5000 / 2900 / 1190 / 1710 - M2020 ( initial conservative estimate )
* T-62 road wheels and tracks are used by both Chonma-216 and Songun-915.
* I assume M2020 is using road wheels and tracks from T-72 with former being smaller diameter than T-62's.
* possible turret bustle has length of 1250mm at most and at least 900mm depending on where it is measured from.
* M2020 in comparison has at least 1200mm length for possible turret bustle thus perhaps probable if considerably longer than that.
125mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A46 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4400 ~ 4600 - T-72 ( depending on model, turret cheeks thickness of T-72B versus T-72A aka T-72M1 ? )
4600 - Songun-915
115mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A20 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4200 - T-62 ( early model 212mm turret armor )
125mm or 115mm smooth bore cannon barrel outside of turret tank in millimeters ?
5000 - Chonma-216
5100 - M2020 ( most conservative est )
5600 - M2020 ( conservative estimate )
If that actually happened then it would have been discussed by Russian military enthusiasts themselves.They actually did, in 1988.
But it's readily obvious from Songun history that tech transfer was at best incomplete by the time USSR collapsed.
It could be that Chonma-216 has 115mm that is longer than original, improved variant to get closer to performance of 2A46.Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?
You look at location of bore evacuator.if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.
Are there arms connection between North Korea and Romania?Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?
V46 is adequate.makes sense, so in terms of powerplant North Korea is not found wanting, great for them that they can build it but i hope for them that they could build a better and more modern engine than the V46 in terms of layout/tech used(even slightly).
Not a lot of commercial diesels in the 1000-1500hp range like you need for tanks. I think most of those that exist are boat engines, which tend to be heavy even for diesels.Or they can learn from China, buy commercial diesel and repurpose them......it will be much easier