Flyaway

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The headline is a bit misleading as the article talks in terms of anti-satellite weapon not a weapon to drop onto the planet.

That is sounding like Russia may be breaking the Outer Space Treaty.
 
It would fry a lot of their satellites too and then there's the matter of the ISS and China's "Heavenly Palace" space-station.
I'm not sure they care anymore. How much of ISS is still Russian? Didn't all their parts get decommissioned? Or is that still coming?

And why would the Russians care about the Chinese space station. China is likely to invade and successfully take most of Siberia outside Vladivostok and Kamchatka.
 
How much of ISS is still Russian?

The Sunrise and Star modules were built by the Russians back in the 1990s but NASA owns them since NASA paid for their construction and Russia has since orbited about four more since.

Didn't all their parts get decommissioned?

No, Putin has been threatening over the years to seperate them and use them as the core of a new Russian space-station but I doubt it will happen.
 
It would fry a lot of their satellites too and then there's the matter of the ISS and China's "Heavenly Palace" space-station.

China also is heavily reliant on satellites for long range naval targeting. They would take an extremely dim view to an arbitrary die off of LEO satellites.

But let’s see if the threat is declassified with more details; I have a hard time believing Russia would orbit a nuclear weapon for ASAT use, given the huge repercussions. Specific altitudes might become unusable due to the amount of uncontrolled satellites and resulting collisions.
 
Probably this as Archibald said on separate thread. Nuclear powered but not really nuclear.


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This is quoting officials describing it as a nuclear anti-satellite weapon, so that pretty much confirms the above.

 
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This is quoting officials describing it as a nuclear anti-satellite weapon, so that pretty much confirms the above.

Something described as "a nuclear, space-based anti-satellite weapon." could cover a lot of ground. Leaping to the notion their conceptual TEM nuclear-electric spacecraft is secretly an ASAT battlewagon seems premature. And panicking about it to the press seems even more silly than if this were something more Goldeneye-esque.
 
Well, nuclear electric propulsion could really help an ASAT mission. Plenty of energy and delta-v for in-space manoeuvering.
 
Been some further limited statements on this from the White House.

The White House has confirmed that it is monitoring a new Russian anti-satellite weapon which it said is being developed but not yet deployed, calling it “troubling” but not an immediate threat to anyone’s safety.

The national security spokesperson, John Kirby, would not directly confirm or deny reports that the new Russian weapon was nuclear, but he did say it was “space-based” and that it violated the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, which prohibits the deployment in space of nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction.

 
Would not an on orbit nuclear detonation trash a lot of LEO satellites, friendly as well? I’m thinking about a modern Starfish Prime.
More concerning: a small nuke set off in orbit, especially LEO, would create an EMP on the surface below it.
"Whoopsie, we were just trying to take out a Starlink sat. Sorry about your national power grid!"
 
A nuclear reactor in space would not violate the Outer Space treaty, even if it was powering a mobile ASAT.

No, this has to be something more like co-orbital nuclear weapons for ASAT. That's a clear no-no, with or without a side-order of EMP.
 
A nuclear reactor in space would not violate the Outer Space treaty, even if it was powering a mobile ASAT.

No, this has to be something more like co-orbital nuclear weapons for ASAT. That's a clear no-no, with or without a side-order of EMP.

If it does break the otter space treaty then it must actually deploy a nuclear weapon, at which point its target and purpose could extend well beyond ASAT as others have noted.

I would suspect the deployment method would be via ICBM, perhaps Sarmat, and that it would only be launched in a conflict, not orbited as a standing system. I suspect we will hear more at some point.
 
Pure speculation, which I knowingly built on wobbly foundations of if and perhaps and surrounded by an electrified fence of caveats...

Now let me lower myself into my wheelchair and put on the dark glasses and black leather glove. Imagine this in a high-pitched pseudo-Germanic accent.

Strategic weapons are not bigger, longer-range tactical weapons. Nor are they held in reserve for devastating first strike or retaliation after a first strike by the enemy. Rather they are in active use to instil fear even before they are commissioned. Thus, the long standoff of the Cold War, or 'Mutual Assured Destruction,' was also called the 'Balance of Terror.' Fear was the point and utility of the strategic nuclear arsenals, not a consequence. It's slightly misleading to call a nuclear arsenal a 'deterrent' because they have wide-ranging effects beyond merely staying the finger over the red button.

IF this is a nuclear-armed and not merely nuclear-powered ASAT system, firing it would seem to be an act of self-destruction. However, deploying it with the apparent intention to use it introduces a new element of risk into diplomacy and strategy for everyone. A technological precedent here is MAD overall, more specifically Dead Hand, and the fictional Doomsday Machine of Doctor Strangelove.


The doctrine that might underlie it is the so-called 'Madman Theory.'


In 1517, Niccolò Machiavelli had argued that sometimes it is "a very wise thing to simulate madness" (Discourses on Livy, book 3, chapter 2)… In his 1962 book, Thinking About the Unthinkable, futurist Herman Kahn argued that to "look a little crazy" might be an effective way to induce an adversary to stand down.

Now, to buttress my unstable structure with overcooked spaghetti of 'who the Hell knows?', I'll use Madman theory to segue into the mists of Putinology.

We all remember this:


"We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... We're all going to die someday."

Not Putin's words but those of a (possibly overenthusiastic) mouthpiece. Putin has however frequently threatened the use of battlefield nuclear weapons because in Russian doctrine a tactical nuke is simply another form of high explosive. This gives the impression that the path to escalation has fewer hurdles.

Some people have characterised Russian threats as 'escalate to de-escalate.' This provides a more nuanced explanation:


I disagree somewhat with the assessment because it depends too much on calculation as a part of decision-making and less on the role of mythos or ethos. However, it supports the idea that the threat of first use is seen by the Russians as more useful than the threat of retaliation.

In his recent 'interview' with Tucker Carlson, Putin gave what was a two-hour lecture on his mythos of the Russian civilisation and his intensely-held resentments - as he has done for a domestic audience for years already. He casts Russia - and himself - in a messianic role, Muscovy as the 'Third Rome', and so forth. My use of 'civilisation' rather than 'nation' or 'state' is deliberate. There is an underlying sense of an historic mission in Putin's aims. He has made no secret of his desire to restore not just the boundaries of the Soviet Union, but the Russian Empire. The leaders of the Baltic, Nordic and Eastern European states fully appreciate this.

The vision is apocalyptic - not in the sense that it inevitably involves universal destruction in reality but in the original sense of the word, an 'unveiling.' According to this view, what happens in the mundane world is a shrouded version of what is really happening on a cosmic plane. The holy leader presents themself as being able to see though the veil.

I think that Putin himself believes a lot of this and is determined to by whatever means recreate a Russian Empire based on his mythology. How much he believes I don't know and this is where the Madman theory (or acting like a Bond villain for that matter) applies: it's not necessary that he be mad, just that he is seen as potentially mad... or just enigmatic and on a hair trigger.

Lately we've seen a lot of talk and demonstration of 'hybrid war' and maskirovka (masked war). As a former KGB man, Putin is well experienced in psychological operations as a part of war and diplomacy and indeed he has used these extensively already. Then we have Steve Bannon talking about 'flooding the zone with bullshit' to present a moving target to the enemy.

I remember seeing a cartoon showing two negotiators coming out of a meeting. One says to the other, 'The problem is that we think we're both playing chess and they think we're both playing poker.'

So, in short, a nuclear ASAT, assuming that that is what it is, is an irrational weapon but that does not make it useless. Like strategic nuclear weapons, it has a politically useful mystique. Putin has shown that he's willing to unilaterally exit treaties and Western powers will be eager to negotiate new ones. This will influence future treaty negotiations, potentially in Russia's favor.

As a footnote, while the Western powers have been sanctioning various oligarchs and military and intelligence officials, Russia is also sanctioning Western historians, underlining Putin's interest in enforcing his particular mythos on the same level as purely military and economic power. Here's an interview with one such sanctioned historian.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afKdYPwIKSQ&t=23s


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to fight with my arm.
 
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A nuclear reactor in space would not violate the Outer Space treaty, even if it was powering a mobile ASAT.

No, this has to be something more like co-orbital nuclear weapons for ASAT. That's a clear no-no, with or without a side-order of EMP.
But isn’t there a discouragement about using nuclear powered satellites within Earth Orbit, I cannot remember now if those old Soviet ocean radar satellites were considered crossing the line or not. Mind you wasn’t there a one off US nuclear powered satellite back in the sixties.
 
But isn’t there a discouragement about using nuclear powered satellites within Earth Orbit, I cannot remember now if those old Soviet ocean radar satellites were considered crossing the line or not. Mind you wasn’t there a one off US nuclear powered satellite back in the sixties.
The Russians and the US both had full nuclear reactors in orbit, though the US did it primarily as a research project via NASA (SNAP) where as the Russians made it an operational system that they routinely kept on station, with at least two failures that involved reactors falling back to earth (standard retirement mode involved boosting them to MEO orbits where they would remain...to this day). I do not think it violates any treaty to use a nuclear reactor in space, and certainly not a RTG generator which is a separate but somewhat related thing. I do think that using a nuclear reactor in space is too expensive for any weapon system you want to use more than a couple of; the RORSATs were never more than 1-2 deep in orbit IIRC.
 
Only and specifically placing nuclear weapons or any other kinds of WMD in orbit is prohibited.
I.e. not just nuclear energy isn't prohibited, strictly speaking even nuclear devices aren't completely out of the question, depending on their purpose (see star wars); at very least there is a space for a debate.
Nuclear ASAT waiting on Earth is covered no more than ICBMs - co-orbital/fobs bad (though doubtful anyone will care when things will reach that point), suborbital/direct ascent is OK(no complete agreement, but a more representative PoV; in those cases IL tends to follow safe options, i.e. of lesser responsibility).

So Kirby either very specifically meant orbital WMD, or outright lied.
 
Sandboxx has just put out a video about this announcement:


On Wednesday, House Intelligence Committee Chair Mike Turner relayed information related to what’s being described as a “serious national security threat” to members of Congress. Unnamed sources cited by CNN confirmed that this notification pertains to what “is, in fact, a highly concerning and destabilizing” Russian capability “that we were recently made aware of.”
Let's talk about what this threat may be, and whether or not you should be concerned.
 
The Russians and the US both had full nuclear reactors in orbit, though the US did it primarily as a research project via NASA (SNAP) where as the Russians made it an operational system that they routinely kept on station, with at least two failures that involved reactors falling back to earth (standard retirement mode involved boosting them to MEO orbits where they would remain...to this day). I do not think it violates any treaty to use a nuclear reactor in space, and certainly not a RTG generator which is a separate but somewhat related thing. I do think that using a nuclear reactor in space is too expensive for any weapon system you want to use more than a couple of; the RORSATs were never more than 1-2 deep in orbit IIRC.
It was stated by the WH that whatever it is, it isn’t designed to hurt people in orbit or on the ground, well letting off a nuclear weapon in LEO would certainly hurt people on ISS. This is sounding more like a mass attack ASAT weapon, something that needs an excessive amount of power to take out a lot of satellites at once.
 
This is sounding more like a mass attack ASAT weapon, something that needs an excessive amount of power to take out a lot of satellites at once.

Based on the results of the DoD's Fishbowl series of very high altitude test-shots conducted during the 1962 Operation Dominic I test-series even just one high-yield thermonuclear explosion would leave LEO uninhabitable for months due to lingering radiation.
 
Using nuclear weapons to disable enemy intel and comms infrastructure sounds like a good invitation to just flat-out nuclear war. With everyone.

That's not a winning proposition for Russia.
 
Based on the results of the DoD's Fishbowl series of very high altitude test-shots conducted during the 1962 Operation Dominic I test-series even just one high-yield thermonuclear explosion would leave LEO uninhabitable for months due to lingering radiation.
More that they need an excessive amount of power for whatever it is, perhaps a large EW array.
 
Using nuclear weapons to disable enemy intel and comms infrastructure sounds like a good invitation to just flat-out nuclear war. With everyone.

That's not a winning proposition for Russia.
There is a serious version of this, the Madman Theory:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_JOGmXpe5I

'Wait, we need a treaty!'

"Why, thank you; yes we do. Here are my terms...'

Putin wants Russia to be feared, hence his interest in superweapons like Poseidon/Status-6. This is another one. They will be the basis of his bargaining position.
 
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