As discussed earlier, a dorsal air intake would be optimal to free up internal volume for weapons and/or fuel. Although dorsal intakes have found application in stealth aircraft (e.g. B-2, various UCAV,...) there is no practical example that would confirm suitability for stealth fighters.
This was not only meant as a chin air intake or some air intakes like su-57 and YF-/NATF-23 have could also go but the problem of a higher Drag and weight is something we won't get around without making the aircraft thinner (im case the side base don't need so mutch space as the air intake right now use.
 
As discussed earlier, a dorsal air intake would be optimal to free up internal volume for weapons and/or fuel. Although dorsal intakes have found application in stealth aircraft (e.g. B-2, various UCAV,...) there is no practical example that would confirm suitability for stealth fighters.
The problem is that at moderate angles of attack, the dorsal intakes get blocked out by the fuselage. Unless you do something unusual like set the LERX/chines/strakes to feed the vortices into the intake.
 
Might I suggest the Douglas F4D as a point of departure?
I think you mean the F5D Skylancer?

Certainly wouldn’t be a bad starting point. With an F414 EPE or EJ200 growth derivative instead of the massive J57, that would free up internal volume for more fuel (already quite generous at 4+ tons) and produce a ~7 ton empty fighter with a small weapons bay and good range.

F5D Standard aircraft characteristics:

In a modern LO fighter flavor with Tempest style twin tails and cranked delta wings it would be in the right ballpark… similar to some of the Rolls Royce renderings:

pr-11-09-2019.jpg
 
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I think you mean the F5D Skylancer?

Certainly wouldn’t be a bad starting point. With an F414 EPE or EJ200 growth derivative instead of the massive J57, that would free up internal volume for more fuel (already quite generous at 4+ tons) and produce a ~7 ton empty fighter with a small weapons bay and good range.

F5D Standard aircraft characteristics:
Gotta admit, the F4D/F5D are probably my favorite late-50s/early-60s Navy fighters.

edit: And looking at it, the F5D might actually be the better starting point than even a Gripen...
 
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Some updates on the 3D model...
I've created some air-to-ground weapons* and added pylons for external weapons carrige (beast mode). Furthermore, a cockpit/pilot, radar, avionics and other systems and details. However, I haven't had time to integrate a retractable refuelling probe yet (probe-and-drogue).
With the ordnance depicted (3286 kg) and full internal fuel (3200 kg / 4000 l), the takeoff weight (14086 kg) is 88% of the projected maximum takeoff weight (16000 kg).

*SDB II / GBU-53/B
*AGM-154 (JSOW)
 

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I really missed fuel tanks.

When we want a modern fighter, which uses the latest technologies, but at a low cost, the cubic volume struggles with all the requirements.

I wouldn't fight with all the requirements and I would try to focus on keeping some of them with superlative characteristics, so that you can complete some missions with really superior characteristics without worrying about fulfilling them all.

For example, we have maneuverability, combat load, cost, speed and range.

I would focus on range and autonomy, combat load.

In this aspect, if you include a version, in this same design of yours, canards, move the wing further towards the end of the fuselage, move the engine to the outer back and hide them with trapezoidal empennages.

This will free up almost the entire fuselage for electronics, fuel tanks and weapons bays. Even think of the weapons bay as a plug and play switchable module for sensors, weapons or even fuel tanks like Textron's skorpion.
Don't neglect the old air intakes by tapering them towards the nozzle, where more equipment can be installed, including Radar antenna edges...

A version of this would be interesting, and you will see that it would result in different characteristics, even with a small fuselage.
 
Your drawing was beautiful and I saw that it included a lot of study!
But I believe that the plane's airframe structure still stole internal space. Your challenge is very big.

It would indeed be very interesting to try some of these suggestions. Yes, it would be a different plane, but it could be a version of his own proposed design.

You will notice that by pushing the engine towards the (Dorsal Position), the air intakes that previously took up a lot of internal space are freed up. Air intakes can become new systems or weapons bays if you integrate them into the radar root. This solves the previous proposal of inverted conformals above the wing if you use these plane cheeks. Yes, you will be concerned about the interruption of airflow when the fighter is in a steep attitude, but install auxiliary gills on the belly and wing roots just to supplement the flow when necessary and controlled by the FBW. The internal area will grow, regardless of what you have already designed, around 30%-40%....this is superlative and will give this translation of capacity in your model without similar competitors. Think, even in front of these cheeks, you can even install an expansion of the radar antenna....larger antenna area, greater capacity even if the hardware is the same....don't let the aircraft's nose be the limiter of your radar ....and again...the old air intake caverns, missiles fit there...the canards will allow rebalancing the cg with the FBW...
 
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...
You will notice that by pushing the engine towards the back, the air intakes that previously took up a lot of internal space are freed up...
I don't get what you mean, the engine is already all the way back!
The only air intake type that would free up a large portion of internal volume is a dorsal intake. However, pros and cons of dorsal intakes were extensively discussed in this thread... I decided against for the explained reasons.
 
I don't get what you mean, the engine is already all the way back!
The only air intake type that would free up a large portion of internal volume is a dorsal intake. However, pros and cons of dorsal intakes were extensively discussed in this thread... I decided against for the explained reasons.
Yeas Dorsal intake.....

f-5em-1160x773.jpg

See the F-5, install automatic ventilation gills in the belly (on the ground) in the belly of the plane right in the direction of the air flow when the fighter is in a high attitude. Auxiliary airflow is restored directly to the engine whenever the fighter is threatened with a flow cut.
 
See the F-5, install automatic ventilation gills in the belly (on the ground) in the belly of the plane right in the direction of the air flow when the fighter is in a high attitude. Auxiliary airflow is restored directly to the engine whenever the fighter is threatened with a flow cut.
The auxiliary air Inlets of the F-5 are in the furthest aft end of the intake duct just before the compressor face of the engine. You don't want that on a stealth aircraft. The purpose of serpentine shaped ducts is to prevent direct line of sight to the compressor blades and disperse radar waves, thus lowering RCS.
Aside from that, those kind of auxiliary air intakes are intented for low speed operation during takeoff and landing, not high speed maneuvering.
 
The auxiliary air Inlets of the F-5 are in the furthest aft end of the intake duct just before the compressor face of the engine. You don't want that on a stealth aircraft. The purpose of serpentine shaped ducts is to prevent direct line of sight to the compressor blades and disperse radar waves, thus lowering RCS.
Aside from that, those kind of auxiliary air intakes are intented for low speed operation during takeoff and landing, not high speed maneuvering.
try it. You don't need direct ducts although the lower distance to the edge of the engines on the dorsal position would be negligible, as well as the grille would only be opened in the maneuver controlled by the FBW. The flow does not need to be large, just complementary during the aggressiveness of the maneuver and can remain closed almost all of the time. In any case, it would be a very small duct and in no way superior to the discretion of the original ducts I designed. It's a new approach, for a new challenge... The grille below the plane is only opened during the maneuver and is necessary, controlled by a computer.
 
try it. You don't need direct ducts although the lower distance to the edge of the engines on the dorsal position would be negligible, as well as the grille would only be opened in the maneuver controlled by the FBW. The flow does not need to be large, just complementary during the aggressiveness of the maneuver and can remain closed almost all of the time. In any case, it would be a very small duct and in no way superior to the discretion of the original ducts I designed. It's a new approach, for a new challenge... The grille below the plane is only opened during the maneuver and is necessary, controlled by a computer.
As a matter of fact, dorsal air intakes never made it into a supersonic fighter so far. And it's not because no one thought of auxiliary air intakes before ;)
 
The F-107 had a big dorsal intake, but that was positioned just aft of the cockpit. @VTOLicious I agree with you that a dorsal intake as proposed by @carvalho2008 (much further aft) would be problematic in a supersonic design.
 
As a matter of fact, dorsal air intakes never made it into a supersonic fighter so far. And it's not because no one thought of auxiliary air intakes before ;)
Really? maybe yes maybe no. Supersonic speed is not limited by dorsal position, but rather the problem of reduced flow at high speeds to the engine. as colleagues have already recalled, the high attitude versus speed, at least in theory, is only achieved when in the flight envelopes and dogfight engagement, and the dogfight is limited by the pilot's G limits... the important thing is that in this scenario, the requirements of invisibility are already relaxed, as the combat is no longer in the BVR arena. Your drawing is wonderful and exemplary, really cool. But it would be interesting to explore these other possibilities. Do not be prejudiced or worried about giving up any requirements, as this would indeed happen, however, other superlative characteristics will appear in a compensatory way. The versatility of exchanging equipment, more abundant fuel and increasing the areas of radar antennas and missiles would be very great, whilst still maintaining practically the same external area through these tricks... this secret project room is the greatest example of great tricks that they died just for the question...if no one did it before, then it wouldn't be good...and conceptually, these tricks are actually simple...an automatic grid can change everything....

If I had your talent, I would try...it should be interesting...
maxresdefault.jpg
 
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Let's see if any of the 6th generation fighters currently in development will have dorsal intakes. One thing is for sure: F-22, F-35, J-20, J-31, Su-57, KF-21 and KAAN does not.
 
Let's see if any of the 6th generation fighters currently in development will have dorsal intakes. One thing is for sure: F-22, F-35, J-20, J-31, Su-57, KF-21 and KAAN does not.
Ok, again the excelent and whole project was classy and very beautiful. It has its space.

But is there any superlative feature in relation to the others presented? Yes, we saw that it is small, but is it enough?

It would be important to exceed the reach of competitors. Have a superior weapons load in stealth mode compared to others. There are so many missions and after all, will he really have superior results against the opponents you listed?

Wouldn't it be interesting to grant these elements and thus hinder and neutralize these competitors?
 
Ok, again the excelent and whole project was classy and very beautiful. It has its space.

But is there any superlative feature in relation to the others presented? Yes, we saw that it is small, but is it enough?

It would be important to exceed the reach of competitors. Have a superior weapons load in stealth mode compared to others. There are so many missions and after all, will he really have superior results against the opponents you listed?

Wouldn't it be interesting to grant these elements and thus hinder and neutralize these competitors?

This thread was started to explore the feasibility of a Gripen sized light weight multirole stealth fighter which provides meaningful capability.
I think the presented conceptual design FAR-21 shows that it is feasible indeed.

Having said that, one could ask the question: Is there a market for FAR-21? ...You may find different opinions in this regard posted all over this thread.
For instance, you could start reading here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ight-multirole-fighter-lmf.38539/#post-506917
...or here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...le-stealth-combat-aircraft-designs-get.37600/
...or here as well:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/prospects-for-a-light-stealth-fighter.41959/
 
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This thread was started to explore the feasibility of a Gripen sized light weight multirole stealth fighter which provides meaningful capability.
I think the presented conceptual design FAR-21 shows that it is feasible indeed.

Having said that, one could ask the question: Is there a market for FAR-21? ...You may find different opinions in this regard posted all over this thread.
For instance, you could start reading here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ight-multirole-fighter-lmf.38539/#post-506917
...or here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...le-stealth-combat-aircraft-designs-get.37600/
...or here as well:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/prospects-for-a-light-stealth-fighter.41959/
About the only place I can really see a market for such a small aircraft is as the fighter for a baby carrier concept, and I'm talking the smallest of the breed at some 20ktons.

Anywhere else, and you don't save much money compared to F-35 or FCAS/Typhoon.
 
About the only place I can really see a market for such a small aircraft is as the fighter for a baby carrier concept, and I'm talking the smallest of the breed at some 20ktons.

Anywhere else, and you don't save much money compared to F-35 or FCAS/Typhoon.
Correct. This is one dimension of what I try to address. A design of a smaller fighter seeks to address the premise of lowering acquisition and operating costs and other simplifications. However, although this constant search is always valid, the benefits may be smaller than the sacrifices of the challenge. For the product to have real market appeal, it must increase some characteristic that is relevant to these competitors. This is why I emphasize that autonomy or the size of the weapons load can be used as a differentiator, although it may detract from some other characteristic of the aircraft.
 
good point.. the market for light fighters isn't as strong as it once was. even the "lightweight" F-16 started at around 7,000kg has now balooned up to around 9,200kg for the most popular models. Placing it near the weight of the Rafale.
 
Correct. This is one dimension of what I try to address. A design of a smaller fighter seeks to address the premise of lowering acquisition and operating costs and other simplifications. However, although this constant search is always valid, the benefits may be smaller than the sacrifices of the challenge. For the product to have real market appeal, it must increase some characteristic that is relevant to these competitors. This is why I emphasize that autonomy or the size of the weapons load can be used as a differentiator, although it may detract from some other characteristic of the aircraft.
Consider the plight of Third World nations that struggle to purchase ANY jet fighter. They struggle to fund fighters that are more capable than their next door neighbor. They have forgotten about staving off Russia or any other Frist World air force.
So they need simple, single-engined, single-pilot fighters that are better than the old fighters flown by the neighbors.
None of these Third World nations can afford capital ships as large as aircraft carriers, but they still need to be able to operate from austere municipal airstrips barely a kilometer lone.
I am thinking of a nation more like Gyana who are so far from the nearest Brazilian air base, that they only need to be able to drop a bridge or three to prevent an invasion by land. If they drop a bridge or sink a ferry boat, then they prevent land troops from invading.
 
So they need simple, single-engined, single-pilot fighters that are better than the old fighters flown by the neighbors
I guess the problem is that there are a lot of fairly capable legacy fighters out there (Mig-29s, Su-27s, F-16As, older Mirages & Gripens etc)… Even if their electronics aren’t state of the art anymore, their performance will still be quite good.

So for any small Air Force looking for an affordable new-build fighter to compete with their neighbors, the first question is what will make that small fighter competitive?

Electronics? (Expensive)
Raw performance? (Expensive)
Stealth? (Expensive)

It’s hard to find a sweet spot for a small new fighter that would be both capable enough and cheap enough to be worth buying. Otherwise just buy a supersonic trainer, a JF-17 or buy off the used market… or use cheap drones for strike (ideally with stand-off weapons for older aircraft) and forget about trying to achieve air superiority.
 
High mounted engines on a fighter might make sense if you are doing all the maintenance inside shops. But good luck when your deployed fighter has engine issues and you lack options to move the fighter by land, especially under contested air space. And its probably a not so intelligent place for an engine operating from a ship.
 
If you want small lightweight but also low observability, advanced capabilities and low cost then UCAS are the only practical solution. By removing the crew and their associated equipment (life support, ejection seat etc) you reduce weight. You also remove the need for training flights and long life thus arguably reduce operational/through life support costs.
 
If you want small lightweight but also low observability, advanced capabilities and low cost then UCAS are the only practical solution. By removing the crew and their associated equipment (life support, ejection seat etc) you reduce weight. You also remove the need for training flights and long life thus arguably reduce operational/through life support costs.

Agree. Feels like we’re on the cusp of seeing the first air-to-air kills by UAVs.

First firing small IR missiles against helicopters and low flying aircraft. Then in a few years it wouldn’t be too surprising to see drones firing longer range radar-guided missiles like AMRAAM or Meteor against high altitude fighters (with target designation via datalink).
 
Yeah. To win against Things Like old 4.gen Fighter on the third world Market one would have to let go of some things Like RAM coating for the whole thing. Many things should be COTS parts. I say 40 Millionen Delux Version and 20 Million for the normal one would be i guess the best. So many can be bought for little Money. But that is hard
 
Consider the plight of Third World nations that struggle to purchase ANY jet fighter. They struggle to fund fighters that are more capable than their next door neighbor. They have forgotten about staving off Russia or any other Frist World air force.
So they need simple, single-engined, single-pilot fighters that are better than the old fighters flown by the neighbors.
None of these Third World nations can afford capital ships as large as aircraft carriers, but they still need to be able to operate from austere municipal airstrips barely a kilometer lone.
I am thinking of a nation more like Gyana who are so far from the nearest Brazilian air base, that they only need to be able to drop a bridge or three to prevent an invasion by land. If they drop a bridge or sink a ferry boat, then they prevent land troops from invading.
Crud, those are the countries buying armed LIFTs, like the FA50 or M346.
 
Its big enough to carry several types of a single medium weight ASMs or paired up lightweight ASMs.
 
Its big enough to carry several types of a single medium weight ASMs or paired up lightweight ASMs.
Yes, the depicted JSOW (AGM-154) is similar in size/weight to JASSM (AGM-158). Smaller types of ASMs are of course possible. Some, which are similar in size to SDB II, could be carried internally as well.
 
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Having said that, one could ask the question: Is there a market for FAR-21?

This is the crux of the issue. Here’s a quick market analysis.

There are three types of countries out there:

A. ~60 large countries with GDP >$100 billion. These can all afford modern fighters, even the smallest like Slovakia, Bulgaria, Morocco, Oman etc. The smaller countries can’t afford two-tier fleets and the big countries are unlikely to want a lower performance Tier 2 fighter so it’s not a great fit.

B. ~100 tiny countries with GDP <$30 billion. These can’t really afford new jets of any kind, even the largest like Iceland, Bosnia, Zimbabwe, Haiti, Lebanon, Mali, Gabon etc. They tend to rely on mercenaries, very small numbers of old hand-me downs, or repurposed trainers.

C. 50 countries in the « middle of the market », with GDP between ~$30 and $100 billion. These can afford small numbers of jets, and might be interested in a new high performance lightweight fighter, rather than used jets. This includes countries like Croatia, Serbia, the 3 Baltic states, large sub-Saharan countries (Kenya, Tanzania, Cameroon, Ghana etc), most of Central/Latin America (Guatemala, Panama, Uruguay, Bolivia etc), and a handful of small Middle Eastern and Asian counties (Jordan, Tunisia, Libya, Cambodia, Myanmar etc).

Group A (the core fast jet market) represents 95% of world GDP. Group B (the countries too small to afford a combat air capability) represent 1% of world GDP.

That leaves a market opportunity (Group C) of roughly 4-5% of world GDP for this lightweight fighter… not great. Maybe the solution would be to design an unmanned variant as a “loyal wingman” for the Group A countries, but not sure the design would be affordable enough for that role.
 
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That leaves a market opportunity (Group C) of roughly 4-5% of world GDP for this lightweight fighter… not great. Maybe the solution would be to design an unmanned variant as a “loyal wingman” for the Group A countries, but not sure the design would be affordable enough for that role.
Cost will definitely vary based on how sensor-heavy the lightweight fighter ends up.

Obviously, something with more or less the full F-35 sensor set will cost about as much as an F-35. A little less if it actually is the F-35 sensors because the sensors are being bought in even larger numbers, but we're still talking on the order of $70-80mil per plane.

If we're assuming that the entity making this plane is trying to avoid a US veto on sales, then it won't be the actual F-35 sensor set but a close approximation. And that will likely run the cost up higher than the F-35.

This bird would still be much cheaper to fly per hour, though.
 
Cost will definitely vary based on how sensor-heavy the lightweight fighter ends up.

Obviously, something with more or less the full F-35 sensor set will cost about as much as an F-35. A little less if it actually is the F-35 sensors because the sensors are being bought in even larger numbers, but we're still talking on the order of $70-80mil per plane.

If we're assuming that the entity making this plane is trying to avoid a US veto on sales, then it won't be the actual F-35 sensor set but a close approximation. And that will likely run the cost up higher than the F-35.

This bird would still be much cheaper to fly per hour, though.
I absolutely agree that electronic hardware and software is a big cost driver in a state of the art combat jet.
But it would be very interesting to see a reliable reference. Is it publicly known how the cost of airframe, engine, avionics, etc. of the F-35(A) is distributed?
 

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