De Schelde Aircraft Projects and Prototypes

[hesham]

Hi,

from the member Toon of Airwarfareforum site;
http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9374
who know that bomber ?.

As I remember,

this Project was called De Schelde tekening or Drawing-1068,as wrote on its fuselage,
it was not registered number,who can confirm on this ?.

As I expected before,it was Drawing No.1068.

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40190-Pander-S-4-de-pechjager

 

[lark]

Think not...

1068 is a phantasy military registration on the fuselage of this design.
It is not sure if it was a development of the Postjager...

It could be De Schelde's entry in a late 30's jachtkruiser competition for the Dutch MLA.

 

[hesham]

My dear Lark,

as I read from long time ago,this was a drawing-1068,but I think we can called it
Ontwerp 68,that's near to sense.

 

[Arjen]

There's simply not enough information to identify the military Postjager as Ontwerp 68, or drawing-1068. The number 1068 might have been random, a fantasy number.

 

[hesham]

My dear Arjen,

I want only to check,and then tell you what is the truth.

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 29/9/1961,

here is a two airplanes designed by Societe Royale de Constructions et de Machines de l'Escaut,they created
a pusher biplane and a pusher flying boat,I never heard about them before,maybe a Projects ?, and they called
Mouette & Moineau.

 

[avion ancien]

Those are Theo Slot's pre-war De Schelde Scheldemusch (= Moineau in French) and Scheldemeeuw (= Mouette in French). As you'll note, they feature in an 'all our yesterdays' column in Les Ailes of 1961, the original piece having been published there twenty five years earlier. I don't know of SRCME but if it was a French company maybe it acquired or intended to acquire a licence for their production (as did Robert Doig's Aircraft Constructions Ltd. in the UK - q.v. http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13748.0) - although I suspect that SRCME is simply a French translation of the name of the NV Koninklijke Maatschappij De Schelde, the manufacturer of the Scheldemusch and Scheldemeeuw.

 

[Arjen]

This page is from the 29th September 1961 issue #1845 of Les Ailes. The article starts with Le 1er Octobre 1936, on lisait dans Les Ailes... - this translates to On the 1st of October 1936, one could read in Les Ailes... .
Societe Royale de Constructions et de Machines de l'Escaut is French for Koninklijke Maatschappij De Schelde. This company started life as a shipbuilding company, for a while also building aircraft. As avion ancien remarks, these are indeed Theo Slot's Scheldemusch and Scheldemeeuw, presented as a retrospective of something published 25 years earlier. Theo Slot was a Dutchman working for a Dutch company, so these drawings are in the wrong thread.

 

[hesham]

OK my dears,

we can transfer it to this topic;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/de-schelde-aircraft-projects-and-prototypes.5276/#post-41961

 

[hesham]

Also in my files,

De Schelde had a Project for two-seat biplane light transport,no more details are
known.

 

[Justo Miranda]

S.21

 

[Apophenia]

De Schelde had a Project for two-seat biplane light transport,no more details are known.

Interesting. An enlarged Scheldemusch concept, perhaps?

 

[hesham]

Maybe before it my dear Apophenia ?.

 

[hesham]

was there any drawings to De Schelde Jae-4301 and Jae-4302 Airplane Projects ?.

Via my dear Lark,and from De Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie

The whole caption.

 

[Michel Van]

my try of a Translation

in consultation with Ir. Broeze from city Delft
the Aircraft has Sleeping quarters in Fuselage and Salons in the wings....
Very remarkable Design by De Schelde for a gigant Waterplane with retractable floater
the passergers sitting in Double Tail with allot windows
the one Design has three contra propellors, the ohter four..

the upper right stands
De Schelde
department Aircraft construction
Tee? no Jae.4302

the last look more like code either
Teek or Teck could be short for „tekening Jae.4302“ dutch for drawing

 

[riggerrob]

De Schelde S.21 was known of in the USA during WW2, but inaccurately described as a German design.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

from the member Toon of Airwarfareforum site;

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9374

who know that bomber ?.

The Fokker design was very similar to this project ?!.

 

[lark]

Hi,

from the member Toon of Airwarfareforum site;

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9374

who know that bomber ?.

On the left engine gondola the name Schelde II is painted.
In smuch smaller letters the name Vlissingen (Flushing)
Found this info wile enlarging a pic. of this plane in the 'De Schelde vliegtuigen' volume
of the Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie-Hugo Hooftman.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

from the member Toon of Airwarfareforum site;

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9374

who know that bomber ?.

On the left engine gondola the name Schelde II is painted.
In smuch smaller letters the name Vlissingen (Flushing)
Found this info wile enlarging a pic. of this plane in the 'De Schelde vliegtuigen' volume
of the Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie-Hugo Hooftman.

Nice Info my dear Lark,

but they were very close to each other ?.

 

[lark]

Hi,

from the member Toon of Airwarfareforum site;

http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9374

who know that bomber ?.

On the left engine gondola the name Schelde II is painted.
In smuch smaller letters the name Vlissingen (Flushing)
Found this info wile enlarging a pic. of this plane in the 'De Schelde vliegtuigen' volume
of the Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie-Hugo Hooftman.

Nice Info my dear Lark,

but they were very close to each other ?.

 

[lark]

There is only a suprificial resemblence between both designs.
The Fokker CC.III is from the beginning of 1934
It was the last design in the CC luchtkruiser series.
(maandblad Luchtvaart Nr1 Jan.1994)

The Schelde modelphoto dates from Febr.1935, before the Dutch national orange triangles came in use.
(one source mentions 5.2'39)
The design shows a clear influence of the Pander S.4 and the Pander S.4 Militair.
It seems to be the Schelde entry for the 'Jachtkruiser 1939/1934 competion.
(Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encl. Pander S Postjager & Luchtvaartkennis. /2001

 

[hesham]

There is only a suprificial resemblence between both designs.
The Fokker CC.III is from the beginning of 1934
It was the last design in the CC luchtkruiser series.
(maandblad Luchtvaart Nr1 Jan.1994)

The Schelde modelphoto dates from Febr.1935, before the Dutch national orange triangles came in use.
(one source mentions 5.2'39)
The design shows a clear influence of the Pander S.4 and the Pander S.4 Militair.
It seems to be the Schelde entry for the 'Jachtkruiser 1939/1934 competion.
(Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encl. Pander S Postjager & Luchtvaartkennis. /2001

Thank you my dear Lark,

and as I remember,that De Schelde use the series number for its designation,and may be began with number 1 to 76,so the 1068 meant as I suggest,Ontwerp 68,because also another company called its designs with
10XX and sometimes XX only without the thousand number

 

[Apophenia]

I'm confused by this notion of an 'Ontwerp 68'.

I understand that this is a purported contraction from a drawing numbered 1068. But I can find no mention of any 'tekening 1068' (neither of the scans posted by Nederlandse Luchtvaart forum member Jan Grisnich from the link in reply #41 mention such a drawing number). So where did this come from?

Am I missing something. Or are 'Ontwerp 68' and 'tekening 1068' both entirely speculative?

 

[lark]

According to the late Hugo Hooftman '1068' on the fuselage
of the Schelde model was imagination .He refers to a person
with the Dutch name Dirk. No further info found yet.

P.S : in my nr.61 post it must be the 1939/40 competition...

 

[hesham]

My dears,

in Reply # 32,I spoke about Ontwerp 76,and in a source,but I don't
remember it now,also called Ontwerp 1076 ?!.

 

[jackssmirkingrevenge]

I hope this is the right place to share it, here is footage of the S.20 prototype flown in 1940:

https://imgur.com/5EOhNK1

 

[riggerrob]

I hope this is the right place to share it, here is footage of the S.20 prototype flown in 1940:

https://imgur.com/5EOhNK1

So it was flown just before the Nasty Germans invaded?

 

[Apophenia]

So it was flown just before the Nasty Germans invaded?

The prototype De Schelde S.20 was just completed before German occupation in June [sic] 1940. It was designed as a trainer for KLM & the military. It first flew on March the 29th 1940 and showed good performance & stability. Sadly the flying could not continue for long. The aircraft was hidden from the Germans in a hanger under some junk. It was finally discovered in June 1941 but was badly damaged by resistance fighters and never flew again.

-- https://theaviationanorak.blogspot.com/2011/08/de-schelde-s20.html

 

[Arjen]

The Netherlands surrendered to Germany on 15 May 1940.

The S.20's first flight was on 29 March 1940, from the airfield at Souburg. It passed into German hands, moved to Feldluftpark Holland at Soesterberg and was probably dismantled some time later in Utrecht.
Data from N.V. Koninklijke Maatschappij "De Schelde" - Afdeling Vliegtuigbouw by Pieter van Wijngaarden, Uitgeverij Wiel Eijdens, 2014.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://www.hollandaircraft.nl/S04%20Schelde%20S.20.pdf

 

[Justo Miranda]

In opposition to the 'low tech' policy of Fokker, the De Schelde firm decided to enter the market of the fighters in 1938 with the S.21, a sophisticated twin tail booms design built entirely of metal, spanning 8.5 m, and incorporating a number of innovatory features. It would have been powered by a 1,050 hp. DB 600 Ga, 12-cylinder inverted-Vee German engine driving a three bladed VDM, controllable-pitch, pusher propeller.

The armament would have consisted of one 7.9-mm MG 17 machine gun rear-firing through the propeller hub, for deterrent purposes, four 7.9-mm FN/Browning forward-firing machine guns and one flexibly mounted 20-mm Solothurn Tankbüsche S18-350 anti-tank cannon. During low-level attack, an automatic stabilising system controlling the ailerons and elevator, the pilot just had to operate the rudder to aim the cannon, which could be set in two positions: horizontal and 25-degrees downwards. The pilot used a retractable periscope to aim the MG 17. The propeller could be detached using explosive bolts when the pilot had to bail out.

The S.21 was expected to have excellent manoeuvrability and flight stability, due to the use of fixed wing slots and the position of the engine, installed over the CG. It was decided to change the engine to a 1,360 hp. DB 601 Aa, with turbocharger, in March 1940, to improve performance at high altitude. The prototype c/n 58 was captured by the Wehrmacht in May. The production version, with DB 601 Aa, would have had an estimated maximum speed of 590 Km/h and 10,000 m ceiling.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-2

 

[Justo Miranda]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-mysterious-case-of-the-misplaced-focke-wulf-de-schelde-f-w-198.17136/

 

[Apophenia]

Does anyone have more on the de Schelde S.8 airliner project? Like a lot of mid-1930s European airliner designs, it owes a lot in layout to the Douglas DC-2. However, power was to be provided by a pair of diesels - Junkers Jumo 205 engines.

On flickr, where I found the attached image, there was mention of a medium airliner type for KLM's routes within the Netherlands East Indies. But that may just be speculation. Alas, flickr member 'Skylarkair' doesn't provide a source for his clipping.

--

https://flic.kr/p/c1kNHm

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/skylarkair/7223788718

 

[lark]

Does anyone have more on the de Schelde S.8 airliner project? Like a lot of mid-1930s European airliner designs, it owes a lot in layout to the Douglas DC-2. However, power was to be provided by a pair of diesels - Junkers Jumo 205 engines.

On flickr, where I found the attached image, there was mention of a medium airliner type for KLM's routes within the Netherlands East Indies. But that may just be speculation. Alas, flickr member 'Skylarkair' doesn't provide a source for his clipping.

--

https://flic.kr/p/c1kNHm

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/skylarkair/7223788718

The picture is the same as in the
'Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie' 1978.
Volume about : Schelde Musch en Schelde Meeuw- Alle vliegtuigen gebouwd door de Schelde.
Written and published by the late Hugo Hooftman.

Text is a compilation of two captions on page 114.

The lettering on the nose - Schelde I Vlisingen - indicates first disign by Slot for the Schelde after the take over
of Pander.
The plane ,if constructed, shoud be of use in the West (probably Dutch West Indie)
On the vertical fin the type number is painted (Type 8)
This type should also have a variant with radial engines.

 

[Apophenia]

Excellent! Thanks for identifying a source, lark!

So, this concept would have been aimed at KLM's Westindisch Bedrijf (WIB). I presume this means that WIB had begun the search for a Fokker F.XVIII replacement soon after 'Snip' (PH-AIS) made its first flight to Curaçao. And, of course, KNILM in the NEI was already replacing Fokker trimotors with DC-2s.

Also great to have those captions from Hooftman's Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie de Schelde volume. On that text, most interesting to see that the S.8 was to be offered with alternative radial engines. We know that the F.XVIII trimotors were Wasp C-powered. KLM DC-2s had 750 hp Cyclone SGR-1820-F2s and the DC-5s that followed in WIB service were also Wright-powered. Of course, no guarantee that, in 1935, de Schelde had anticipated that shift from P&W to Wright engines.

I too was going to comment on the nacelle markings 'Schelde I / Vlisingen'. Back in reply #58, you had noted the similar 'Schelde II / Vlisingen' markings on the jachtkruiser design which opened this thread. Since we now have it confirmed that 'Schelde I' refers to the first T.E. Slot design specifically for de Schelde, we can safely infer that 'Schelde II' indicates Slot's second design for the firm. As such, we can dispense with the notion that that those jachtkruiser markings might suggest an 'S.11' [sic] designation.

 

[lark]

The sources for my post 75 were:
the affore mentioned encyclopedia vol 7-1978
Book : De Schelde - afdeling vliegtuigbouw - Pieter van Wijngaarden 2014
Magazine : Luchtvaart January 1998- Frits Gerdessen article
The search for Schelde II is on.
I'll keep you informed..