De Monge/Buscaylet Prototypes & Projects

[hesham]

Hi,

in the 1928 competition for RN.3 three-seat night recce aircraft,
which the main tenders were,ANF-120,Loire-30,Wibault-220 and
De Monge M-120.
The aircraft actually built and here is its data;

http://www.aviafrance.com/9972.htm

 

[Tophe]

Thanks to remind this poorly known twin-boom project. There were many De Monge other twin-boomers (7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 150).

 

[hesham]

Hi,

when I spoke about the De Monge M-120 RN.3 aircraft,my dear
Tophe responded about there are many De Monge twin boom
projects,as he mentioned (7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 150),and please
my dear Tophe if you have a more info or drawings to them.

I only found a the Model 7.2 project;

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1923/1923%20-%200761.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1923/1923%20-%200762.html

 

[Retrofit]

Hi Hesham,

Here-after some informations from "Aviation Magazine" (Jean Liron, date ?) and "Flugsport" (March 1925) concerning the De Monge Twin-boom aircraft and projects with a main specifications table and two photos (bad, sorry, copy of copies).

Translation of the table:
Type / Engine / Power / Span / Lenght / Height / Wing Area / Empty weight / Total weight / Max speed / Autonomy / Use / Crew + pax / MFG year / Registration / Number produced / Remarks:
Type 7-2: Not finished. "Grand raid" version autonomy: 7000km
Type 7-3: Scale model 1/3 of Type 7-2
Type 7-4: Scale model 1/3 of Type 150
Type 7-5: 2nd scale model 1/3 of Type 150


De Monge also designed a twin boom experimental glider which was engaged at the "Sailplane Offical Meeting of Combegrasse", France, in August 1922, piloted by Casale.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Retrofit very much,

and for the Type-150,was it a military transport aircraft ?.

 

[Triton]

Scale model of DeMonge Type 7.5.

Three-view drawing of DeMonge Type 7.5.

Source: The Bugatti Revue
http://home.uni-one.nl/bugatti/revue3/rev3-4.htm

 

[Tophe]

I will check, maybe next week-end, but I just had a look on my bibliographic booklet. Sources :
- Burnelli lifting body chapter :
Trait d’Union Bacalan Special : 3v of 7.5
Pilote Privé : 3v of glider 1922
Trait d’Union 171: details on 120
Jane’s 1927 : photo of 7.4, details
Aviation Magazine 383 : 3v of 7.3 and 7.4
The 7.4 and 7.5 were 2-seat models at scale 1/3 of the big 150 with 10 seats (the 7.2 having 32 seats)
- Pod and booms chapter :
Aviation Magazine 384 : 3v of 120RN3
That is all I have written down in the past. What should I check first, someday? (the Pilote Privé photocopy would be very difficult to find this year).

EDIT. The 120RN3 3-view has been posted by Hesham at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10809.0.html

 

[Retrofit]

Hi Triton,

The wording of "The Bugatti Revue " website can be misleading.
The photo shows in fact the full scale Type 7-5, which was itself a 1/3 scale model of the Type 150.

Thank you for this link!

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dears Very much,

and here is the De Monge 7/4.

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/buscaylet_74.php

 

[Tophe]

From the "Trait d'Union" magazine index (below). What are you interesting in?

 

[Tophe]

PS. : M is mention, P is photo, D is drawing, C is addition

 

[hesham]

All of them are amazing my dear Tophe.

 

[Tophe]

But you may understand I will not scan and post 9 full pages of magazine, so choices have to be made. Next week-end maybe, I will check what has already been posted and what is still new. OK.

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Tophe,

I am interesting in 1.1,1.2,6.1,8-1,9-1,10-1,140 and 160.

 

[Maveric]

My friend Tophe,

I´m intersted in the Monoplane 1914 / 1.1 / 1.2 / 6-1 / 8-1 / 9-1 / 10-1 / 120 / 140 / 150 and 160. Hope you understand, but all thiese birds are new for me.

Thanks Maveric

 

[Tophe]

All right, I will check and scan and post the forthcoming week-end. For the items with just a Mention, it will be even more simple: I just have to translate into English without scan. Soon.

 

[Maveric]

Thanks Tophe...

 

[vigair]

in zeischrift fur luftfahrt 1921 is a mention of de monge 5-1 coupe deutsch racer.is it the lumiere de monge racer? fully describe in the aeroplane number five and flugsport number 19 of 1921. Hispâno suiza 300 hp speed 320km/h. biplane transformation in monoplane

 

[Retrofit]

in zeischrift fur luftfahrt 1921 is a mention of de monge 5-1 coupe deutsch racer.is it the lumiere de monge racer? fully describe in the aeroplane number five and flugsport number 19 of 1921. Hispâno suiza 300 hp speed 320km/h. biplane transformation in monoplane

Yes, this aircraft was registrated for the 1921 Coupe Deutsch but crashed on September 23, 1921, following a flutter problem.
Pilot De Romanet was killed.

Source: Book "The Speed Seekers" by Thomas Foxworth.
"During 1921 Viscount Louis Pierre de Monge de Franeau, owner, general manager and directeur technique of Etablissements Lumiere...decided to enter that season's major European air races with a new speedplane...his avion de course designated 5.1..."

Note: In the book is mentioned that prior the race, "De Monge was already at work on the design of a tailless flying wing, a type whose popularity was suddenly burgeoning."
Any information about this tailless flying wing design?
Thanks in advance,

 

[hesham]

Hi,

The De Monge 5/2 was a single seat fighter fitted with a parasol
wing as a monoplane,it was flown first time in 1923.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1923/1923%20-%200005.html

 

[Tophe]

I start from the end of the Trait d'Union collection, to get corrections before mistakes.
#175:
In 1922 Show was presented the Buscaylet-De Monge 5-2 fighter and a drawing of the 3-engined 7-2 (9000kg weight plane for 30 passengers on 1000km distance at speed over 200km/h).
Louis-Pierre de Monge de Franeau was a Belgium citizen, born in 1890 and deceased July 25th 1977 in New York. He built his first airplane in 1911. He worked during WW1 for the Lumière company. After the war, he stayed technical director for Lumière while creating his own design bureau. He designed and built many machines in France. After the failure of them, he went and worked in Belgium for Imperia. In 1937, he has been the designer of the Bugatti racer for the Deutsch de la Meurthe Cup.

 

[Tophe]

From "Le Trait d'Union" N°166, March-April 1996:

 

[Tophe]

From "Le Trait d'Union" #171:
The Type 120 of the Exino company founded by Louis De Monge was a 3-seater for night reco. A derivative with 2 engines of 400hp would have reached 230km/h and 7,000m (instead of 200km/h and 5,700m). The program it was competing in was canceled in 1932. The 120 never flew and the Exino Co. disappeared.

 

[Tophe]

“Le Trait d’Union” #171:
- The Exino company created by Louis De Monge presented in December 1930 a project Type 140, three-engined airliner with inhabited wing. Weight 18 tons, power 2,000 hp total , flying at 230km/h 5,000m.
- A mock-up has been built in 1931 of a BN-4 class “flying wing” (like the Type 120). 245km/h 7,000m. Cancelled because the company disappeared.
- In 1935, De Monge designed a small 2-seat “flying-wing”, to be constructed at Starck and Guénot Co. With a Rubis-Péquignol engine.

 

[Tophe]

"Le Trait d'Union" 164, first post: glider built in 1922

 

[Tophe]

“Le Trait d’Union” #164, texts without picture:
- Type 6.1: designed in 1921, amphibious with hull for 15 passengers, Paris-NewYork line (imagined…). 3 engines of 500hp. Looking like the Richard Penhoet 2. Not built.
- Type 8-1: for the program 52/3, De Monge presented in 1926 a biplane CN2 built in wood (only one copy built). 1 engine Fiat 700hp.
- Type 9-1: monoplane fighter with a 500hp Salmson engine. Static tests but not flown.
- 10-1: licence-built Koolhoven FK31 slightly modified of military class C2. One prototype built.
- 160: tourism single-engine two-seater, 1926, 1 engine Anzani 35hp.

 

[Antonio]

merged topics

 

[hesham]

Excellent my dear Tophe,

thank you very very much,and can I ask about two aircraft,
the first 8-1 CN2 and what is that mean,two-seat naval fighter
or not,and the second 9-1,I think it was submitted to 1923 C.1
competition.

 

[Tophe]

and can I ask about
the first 8-1 CN2 and what is that mean,two-seat naval fighter
or not,

According to http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=3749
it seems a CN2 is "un Chasseur de Nuit biplace" (a 2-seat Night Fighter)

 

[Tophe]

From Le Trait d'Union #224 Nov-Dec 2005: a Louis De Monge flying wing airliner project, 1934.

 

[Tophe]

And a VG (retractable wing way) De Monge project of 1934, also from the same great magazine...

 

[hesham]

Marvelous projects my dear Tophe,


Thank you very much,and for Hanriot projects,I will open a new
topic for it.

 

[Retrofit]

From Le Trait d'Union #224 Nov-Dec 2005: a Louis De Monge flying wing airliner project, 1934.

It is funny because the same aircraft appears on the front page of a document signed by Rolland Payen around 1940, and with Payen name written on the fins!

 

[Tophe]

I required expert analyze from our Payen expert: dear Deltafan.

Si le dessin de couverture n'est pas un Payen, ça expliquerait pourquoi l'article n'en parle pas (les seuls Payen cités sont uniquement ceux que l'on trouve dans l'ouvrage d'Alain Pelletier : Les ailes volantes). Maintenant pourquoi y a-t-il marqué Payen sur ce dessin de de Monge ? Sais pas. Peut-être une simple erreur de l'éditeur et/ou une confusion avec d'autres projets Payen, comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge ?

In English: If the cover drawing is not a Payen, that would explain why the included article does not mention it (the only mentionned Payen being the ones found in Alain Pelletier's book "Flying Wings"). Well, why is it written PAYEN on the De Monge design? I don't know. Maybe a mistake by the publisher and/or a confusion with other Payen projects, like the Pa.361TP of 1937, which has a similar layout (?).
Thanks a lot, Deltafan, it is nice to have such experts among us! explaining puzzle mysteries...

 

[Retrofit]

Thanks Tophe and Deltafan. Indeed, not a word on this cover project in Payen article.
BTW, is there a drawing available of this Payen 361TP of similar layout?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Stargazer]

I have thorougly examined all the info I have on Payen, but I couldn't come across anything about the De Monge-Payen flying wing as shown in the drawings above. I hope someone can clarify this because it's extremely interesting!

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Tophe and Deltafan. Indeed, not a word on this cover project in Payen article.
BTW, is there a drawing available of this Payen 361TP of similar layout?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Stargazer]

Great pic! However I wouldn't call this design "similar". In profile form there may be similarities, but the planform is completely different.

 

[Deltafan]

Ahem, i don't know the good translation for : comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge

 

[Stargazer]

Ahem, i don't know the good translation for : comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge

"... such as the Pa.361 TP project of 1937, the shape of which is vaguely reminiscent of the De Monge..."