Dassault Mirage G8A / ACF / Super Mirage

Hello,
Thank you :)
If I knew that my drawing would have been published on a 2 pages, I would have made much more effort in my rendering!! Too late...
I give you here the file in high quality that I delivered to Le Fana. Basically, I took a previous plan from a few years back and tried to add more details with inspirations from the Mirage 4000. Le Fana wanted to have this Super Mirage with some missiles in test and high visual colors, so I figured out to represent the M550 Magic and M530, which were from the same time period.
Enjoy,
Regards
Alain
 

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Thanks Alanqua

I saw quickly the Fana 580 in the supermarket. The article seems to be very interesting. I wait for my monthly copy in the letter box, but it doesn't come yet... :'(
 
The Super 530F entered service with the F1C-200s around 1981 (from memory) so the ACF would have it from the start.

Considering the enormous expense that was the ACF, there was no way it would have carried the very bad, outdated and innefficient R-530 (IMHO of course)

Or perhaps in an emergency only, firing them Vietnam style, in salvoes, with the hope that one of them would kill a Mig... randomly.

(a F-1 pilot once told about firing a test R-530: the freakkin' missile went crazy and turned a barrel around the Mirage, to the great... stress and dismay of the pilot. It finally shot down... a cloud, nearby)
 
Hello,
Originally for this work, Le Fana requested some missiles represented in color markings for aerial tests. After some research (wikipedia) I found out that:
- the R530 entered in service in 1963 and was produced until 1978,
- the ACF project was abandoned in 1975,
- the super 530F missile entered in service in 1980 and production ran until 1985,
So, I imagined that, if the ACF would have survived political turmoils, it could have potentially used R530 missiles for first basic trials (let say tests for mass, inertia, positionning, aerodynamics, etc...), before using the Super 530 F and D eventually. I thought that, using Super 530Fs would have portrayed an ACF in a "lately" period (around 1980) and at that time it would have been already in service. Isn'it?
At least, that was the logic I pursued in doing the drawing.
What is your opinion on that?
Regards
Alain
 
I see your reasoning, but the Super 530 was explicitly specified for the ACF in the requirement and test missiles would have been available from the start of flight testing. It's unlikely the radar would have supported the older R.530, and for aerodynamic testing you'd use a inert round of the Super 530 shape.

Its still a nice drawing though :)

Design of the Super 530 began in 1968, with the start of development in 1971. The first firing of a controlled mock-up missile took place in February 1973, following ramp tests in 1971 and flight trials of the AD26 homing head in 1972. In July 1973, drop trials were carried out, followed by aircraft carriage and aerodynamic trials in the first half of 1974.

Development and evaluation trials by the Centre d’Experience Aeriennes Militaires (CEAM) continued from 1974 through 1977 and included live firings. The first fully guided firing took place in 1975, when a missile fired from a Vautour flying at Mach 0.7 at a height of 11,000 meters (roughly 36,000 ft) successfully intercepted a target drone flying at Mach 1.6 at a height of 18,000 meters (approximately 59,000 ft). The first firing from a Mirage F1 took place in 1976; following the successful conclusion of the trials, a production contract was signed in late 1977.
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From le Fana 3/2018.
 

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And the wingtip points right at Marcel Dassault himself (the man with the glasses, in the middle)
 
Does anyone know what radar was intended for the ACF?

The other day I came across a document from 1977 in which it was claimed by the French (to the British MoD) that the Mirage 2000's radar was based on that of the ACF but with a smaller diameter dish. Presumably this meant the Thomson-CSF RDM?
The document goes on to mention that in the event of Anglo-French collaboration on a Mirage 2000 derivative that Britain could probably provide a superior radar, so that might lend more weight to it being the RDM?
Does anyone have any more information?
 
I don't think its the RDM. The RDM was a quick private venture development from Cyrano IV - the French Air Force funded RDI. They took a few RDM equipped Mirages mostly to help with export optics.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
I don't think its the RDM. The RDM was a quick private venture development from Cyrano IV - the French Air Force funded RDI. They took a few RDM equipped Mirages mostly to help with export optics.
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I confess my knowledge of French avionics is patchy, hence my questions.
 
Hood said:
Does anyone know what radar was intended for the ACF?

The other day I came across a document from 1977 in which it was claimed by the French (to the British MoD) that the Mirage 2000's radar was based on that of the ACF but with a smaller diameter dish. Presumably this meant the Thomson-CSF RDM?
The document goes on to mention that in the event of Anglo-French collaboration on a Mirage 2000 derivative that Britain could probably provide a superior radar, so that might lend more weight to it being the RDM?
Does anyone have any more information?
Click to expand...

Pulse doppler (and the according look down / shoot down capability) took a very long time and arduous development in France.
I think the ACF (1972-75) was to have it, then it was passed to the 2000 after 1975 but slowed down to such a point, what became the RDI was not available until 1985 at best.
And so they quickly derived RDM out of the old Cyrano family (Mirage III / Mirage F1) for early batches of Mirage 2000: the ones that entered service in Dijon in July 1984.

It also boiled down to the difference between Super 530 "D" and"F". The latter was mated to the Mirage F1 and its Cyrano IV, but the whole thing certainly wasn't pulse doppler nor look down / shoot down.

The Super 530D was the pulse doppler missile, but it needed the RDI and both were too late for early 2000s.

So in a few words: the original plan for the ACF was something like RDI + Super 530D.
I have no clue when it would have been available, but the cancellation and shift to the 2000 led to delays.

Dassault was pretty good at airframes but SNECMA and Thomson CSF sucked a little at radars and engines. Matra was an in-between for missiles.

Thomson-CSF - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Another pic found on the net from a different angle, to go with the pic posted by Toura in reply no.22.
Not posted yet in this particular thread.
Note engine positioned behind airframe.
 

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overscan (PaulMM) said:
France tried to get a Hughes pulse-doppler radar (AN/APG-63 or maybe the export-oriented ATLAS that led to the AN/APG-65) for ACF initially, presumably with license production to help upskill local industry.
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According to COMAERO, pulse-doppler was started for Mirage F3 in 1966-67 but abandonned for half a decade or more; until it was revived for the ACF, then the Mirage 2000. Was to be RDI, not RDM - Radar De Merde...
 
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Hi!
Source https://www.key.aero/article/dassault-mirage-g-swing-wing-fighter-nobody-wanted

「Dassault already had the feeling that variable geometry was a road to nowhere. On 5 June 1972, it had offered to modify the second G8 prototype, which was yet to fly. The idea was to replace the VG wing with a fixed one of 55° sweepback, creating the G8A. This project was not taken up, but on 22 August 1973 the government issued a specification for a new fighter to enter production in 1979, and on 5 December Dassault was contracted to produce a prototype. It was to be based on the G8 airframe but with a thinner wing set at 55° sweep, and renamed as the Super Mirage to avoid any confusion with the US Air Combat Fighter programme.But the rebranding still wasn’t enough to save it. Newly elected President Valéry Giscard d’Estaing decided in 1975 to reorientate the project towards a single-engined fighter, which was deemed easier to export. That, finally, was the end of the G8. A new line of thought would be explored, with a return to the delta wing, eventually materialising as the Mirage 2000 — and fulfilling d’Estaing’s hopes.」
 

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Hi!

Super Mirage Tech Tree

All duel 30mm DEFA 553 Cannon f2 & g8 get 6 underwing hardpoints for a determined amount of stores calculated based on what the aircraft's load can handle. Dassault Mirage G&F2 Spoiler one 20,503-lb st SNECMA TF-306E afterburning turbo fan VAriable Set wing... 22 degree and 70 denote G 1,...
old-forum.warthunder.com old-forum.warthunder.com
 

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alternathistory.ru

Проект истребителя ACF Super Mirage. Франция. Часть 1 - Альтернативная История

Проект истребителя ACF Super Mirage. Франция. Часть 1 - Альтернативная История
alternathistory.ru alternathistory.ru
alternathistory.ru

Проект истребителя ACF Super Mirage. Франция. Часть 2 - Альтернативная История

Проект истребителя ACF Super Mirage. Франция. Часть 2 - Альтернативная История
alternathistory.ru alternathistory.ru

Please use google translation.
click button by attached picture, then click 他の言語を選択, then press ▼ and select 英語(English)
 

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Archibald said:
(a F-1 pilot once told about firing a test R-530: the freakkin' missile went crazy and turned a barrel around the Mirage, to the great... stress and dismay of the pilot. It finally shot down... a cloud, nearby)
Click to expand...
Sounds like that pilot would have needed some time to get the pilot's seat cushion removed from his backside...



overscan (PaulMM) said:
France tried to get a Hughes pulse-doppler radar (AN/APG-63 or maybe the export-oriented ATLAS that led to the AN/APG-65) for ACF initially, presumably with license production to help upskill local industry.
Click to expand...
That's certainly what I'd try for. Licensed production, design modifications, design your own unit entirely.
 
Does anyone knows about the performance of the G8A? Could it turn better than the Mirage f1 or the 2000? Hardpoint number, etc?
 
The Mirage G8s (01 and 02) were already dynamite. Despite the weak Atar 9K50 and the additional weight of VG they already hit Mach 2.35 (13/07/1973) and, according to Dassault test pilot Jean Marie Saget, were still accelerating.

The ACF would have been a Mach 2.5 beast; comparable to the Su-27 or F-15 (and Tomcat but no VG). The M53 was weaker than contemporary military turbofans; but other than that, it would have been like a scaled up Mirage F1. They should have called it Mirage F8, but Dassault completely sucks at names.

Next, consider the Iraqi F1s (the EQ- series, up to EQ-6) and all the armement they carried. Despite a single, weak Atar 9K50 and the hot and dusty climate: they did wonders. Frack, they even managed to shoot a handul of Tomcats.

A case could be make the ACF would have been a match to Su-27 and F-15 - or perhaps slightly inferior.

The Mirage 4000 however was probably superior, thanks to the lighter delta with much less control surfaces (1 vertical fin rather than 4 surfaces) with the delta and the fin both containing additional fuel - so more range. Plus the canard and analog FBW helping agility.

The Rafale and 4000 with the big delta have tons of hardpoints - 13 or 14.

It is a pity the two G8s stopped flying too early - and the ACF never flew, plus it was scrapped. Would have been mind blowing to see all four of them flying together: VG, swept and delta: with broadly similar fuselages, as the 9K50 was interchangeable with the early M53s (-2 and -5).
Le Bourget museum has the G8-01 and the 4000. The G8-02 is at another museum in Montélimar - at least what's left of it. And the incomplete ACF was scrapped.
 
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Archibald said:
The Mirage G8s (01 and 02) were already dynamite. Despite the weak Atar 9K50 and the additional weight of VG they already hit Mach 2.35 (13/07/1973) and, according to Dassault test pilot Jean Marie Saget, were still accelerating.

The ACF would have been a Mach 2.5 beast; comparable to the Su-27 or F-15 (and Tomcat but no VG). The M53 was weaker than contemporary military rubofans; but other than that, it would have been like a scaled up Mirage F1. They should have called it Mirage F8, but Dassault completely sucks at names.

Next, consider the Iraqi F1s (the EQ- series, up to EQ-6) and all the armement they carried. Despite a single, weak Atar 9K50 and the hot and dusty climate: they did wonders. Frack, they even managed to shoot a handul of Tomcats.

A case could be make the ACF would have been a match to Su-27 and F-15 - or perhaps slightly inferior.

The Mirage 4000 however was probably superior, thanks to the lighter delta with much less control surfaces (1 vertical fin rather than 4 surfaces) with the delta and the fin both containing additional fuel - so more range. Plus the canard and analog FBW helping agility.

The Rafale and 4000 with the big delta have tons of hardpoints - 13 or 14.

It is a pity the two G8s stopped flying too early - and the ACF never flew, plus it was scrapped. Would have been mind blowing to see all four of them flying together: VG, swept and delta: with broadly similar fuselages, as the 9K50 was interchangeable with the early M53s (-2 and -5).
Le Bourget museum has the G8-01 and the 4000. The G8-02 is at another museum in Montélimar - at least what's left of it. And the incomplete ACF was scrapped.
Click to expand...
I didn't expected an answer so fast. Thank you!

The Dessault sucking at names is true! I always felt the Mirage III should be named Mirage I in the first place. I know the Mirage I is a completly different plane, but maybe an "X-01" could be better imo.

A shame this plane never made it. I love shoulder wings. Maybe if Dessault stayed with the classic one engine model, it could had worked better.

What I also wonder is if the plane having too much of a swept wing could affect the performance of the plane.... Also could the plane worked and enter the production line if it had only one engine and tried to fight/bomb/intercept/etc like the Mirage F1?
 
ElTeletubi said:
I didn't expected an answer so fast. Thank you!

The Dessault sucking at names is true! I always felt the Mirage III should be named Mirage I in the first place. I know the Mirage I is a completly different plane, but maybe an "X-01" could be better imo.

A shame this plane never made it. I love shoulder wings. Maybe if Dessault stayed with the classic one engine model, it could had worked better.

What I also wonder is if the plane having too much of a swept wing could affect the performance of the plane.... Also could the plane worked and enter the production line if it had only one engine and tried to fight/bomb/intercept/etc like the Mirage F1?
Click to expand...
Well, Dassault kept the name Rafale between the Rafale A demonstrator and the production Rafale C/B/M, and it often receives comments like "the Rafale, which first flew in 1986". And when you talk with them (Dassault), they don't really like that because their airplane sounds older than it really is, haha !

So, the Mirage I is to the Mirage III what the X-35 is to the F-35 (or what the Rafale A is to the Rafale C, kinda): a proof of concept.

For my part, I think there is nothing wrong with the Mirage I, III and IV.
It start getting crazy with the Mirage 5 (that is not the V), the Mirage III V (which stands for Vertical, not the roman 5), and all the F and G series !
 
We should have a thread "Dassault picks rational nomenclature names."
"D1" for delta
"V" for VSTOL
"F" for flèche
"VG" for variable geometry
"D2" for delta-returns-with-FBW."
 
ElTeletubi said:
I didn't expected an answer so fast. Thank you!

The Dessault sucking at names is true! I always felt the Mirage III should be named Mirage I in the first place. I know the Mirage I is a completly different plane, but maybe an "X-01" could be better imo.

A shame this plane never made it. I love shoulder wings. Maybe if Dessault stayed with the classic one engine model, it could had worked better.

What I also wonder is if the plane having too much of a swept wing could affect the performance of the plane.... Also could the plane worked and enter the production line if it had only one engine and tried to fight/bomb/intercept/etc like the Mirage F1?
Click to expand...
"Dessault"? "Broeing"? "Bouglas"?
 

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