Dassault Mach 3 Mirage fighter projects

[overscan (PaulMM)]

51-30 was designed for Mach 3, 51-45 for Mach 4.5, the clue's in the name

 

[Deltafan]

M53 engine had (has) a very low compression ratio of 9.8:1 (compared to contemporary engines of 20:1 - 30:1) which means high speed (Mach 2.5+) could have been achievable with the right intake/exhaust design. It was initially specified for Mach 2.5-3.0 designs.

Any evidence of M53 powered aircraft hitting higher than official speeds in testing?

Difficult to fly to mach 2.5 for planes (F1, 2000 and 4000) that are limited to mach 2.2 because of the heat barrier (it's, in any case, what said Marcel Dassault in the french TV years ago). The fastest Mirage was the not M53 bi-engined VG G8, with mach 2.34, thanks to its folded wings.

Alanqua, you are (very ! very ! very !) great !!!

Lovely stuff! Thanks for sharing.

I do have one question though, what is the B25 Jet Engine in the engines picture in the last post?

On the list it's B2S. On the engines drawings it's between "5" and "S"...

Thanks Deltafan! Is there any good source on the engines on the list - my Google-fu is not bringing anything up on the B2S

Sorry, I must admit that my files are poorer for the engines than for the frames... I have a book about SNECMA but it doesn't speak of these "super engines".
-In Le Fana 461 or in French SP 1, I did not find anything about this B2S.
-For the TF 306, I answer farther to sferrin.
-For the M48 (not mentioned for Class 1 and 2 projects in the alanqua's lists) and M51, they used the same system as the J58 (Fana 461)
-Low compression ratio M52 (6 vs 16 for TF 306) was not good for acceleration but better for high speed and high altitude (Fana 461)
-foreseen at first for Mach 4, the M53 was ultimately designed for Mach 2.5 (Fana 461)

51-30 was designed for Mach 3, 51-45 for Mach 4.5, the clue's in the name

What is the source ? It does not seem logic if we refere to the 51-53 :-\

 

[Deltafan]

How did they intend to get a TF30 to go Mach 3.5? Did it have some kind of bypass gimickry like a J58? ???

According to what is wrote in page 26 of Fana 461 (my English is not as good to be sure. It's why I give the French version before, for better translators) :

"Le TF 306 se présentait comme un bon compromis jusqu'à mach 2.5, où son rendement diminuait. SNECMA proposa plusieurs moteurs combinant turboréacteur et statoréacteur à partir du TF 306"

I understand

"TF 306 engine was a good compromise to Mach 2.5, where its performances were declining. From the TF 306, SNECMA proposed several engines combining turbojet and ramjet."



To finish with the engines, Fana 461 + French SP 1 give :

-SNECMA TF 306 DS : 11 800 - 12 000 kgp
-SNECMA M51-30 : 12 500 kgp
-SNECMA M51-45 : 7 500 kgp
-SNECMA M51-53 : 13 000 kgp

 

[Archibald]

Ah yes, turboramjet, just like SR-71 or Nord Griffon. Or Leduc 022. Don't forget the ONERA STATALTEX reached Mach 4.5 in the 1965, a world record that hold for quite a long time.
http://xplanes.free.fr/stato/stato-17.html

 

[fightingirish]

Dear folks,
thanks for sharing! B)
So far IMHO the best topic/thread of the month January 2018.

 

[JC Carbonel]

You mentionned the projects in FSP1 do not always tie-in with those in Le Fana. Well that's fairly simple to explain. What Alanqua posted shows you what I (and presumably Mr Rocher) had to work from. Just plans, sometimes without even a scale indicated, not even a cartouche with date, name of the project, designer. And no brochure. Trying to tell a story from this I could use what Rocher had previously written, various interviews of Armée de l'air officials in AviaMag / Interavia and if I remember well two(2) official (state) reports. So if I had a blueprint with a handwritten "X1" label and le Fana had a modern re-drawing called "X1-xy" , I could see with my eyes that the two appeared similar but no way I was going to write they were the same !
JCC

 

[Archibald]

We also have the precious testimony of Dassault best all time test pilot, Jean Marie Saget (still alive, aged 88).

It was Saget that established most Mirage speed and height records of the golden age (1955 - 1985) for example flying a Mirage III to 80 000 ft in the early 60's, and that includes the G8-02 speed record of July 13, 1973. Saget said that the plane was still accelerating like a bat outta hell, but the Atars were at the top of their thermal barriers.

While the G8-01 was piously preserved at MAE, the G8-02 got an infamous fate: it was cut to the bones, and only the cockpit and airframe structure were preserved, as a flight simulator. That relic was saved, and now lies at the Musée Européen de l'Aviation de chasse, in Montelimar. Sic transit gloria mundi !

http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/images/listinmae/appareils/dassault/mirage_G8/Mirage-G8-02.jpg

heartbreaking.

 

[alanqua]

Hello,
I'm glad that everybody was happy to have those blueprints! If I remember well from the discussions I had with the writer of the article published in Le Fana de l'Aviation, during his research, he found even more blueprints in the archives and only took photos of some of them. I don't remember exactly from which archives he was talking about (maybe Vincennes, or Dassault, I can't remember). The 3-views plan of the MD750 was shown to Bruno Revellin Falcoz, head of the Dassault Design Office, but he was surprised, this project did not seem to ring a bell to him. I'm surprised to see how much fantasies, desire and fantasms, those Mirage Mach 4 projects brought to people. There were some model makers issuing MD750 models, I even found an article in a hobby magazine! Fantastic.
Regards
Alain

 

[Deltafan]

The 3-views plan of the MD750 was shown to Bruno Revellin Falcoz, head of the Dassault Design Office, but he was surprised, this project did not seem to ring a bell to him.

Astonishing, as there were at least the known 3D view from Aviation Magazine (mid-June 1969) and the black-gold desk model. And the page 235 of FSP 1 (MD 750 like MD 751f drawings and characteristics) seem to confirm it.

I'm surprised to see how much fantasies, desire and fantasms, those Mirage Mach 4 projects brought to people. There were some model makers issuing MD750 models, I even found an article in a hobby magazine! Fantastic.

Yes ! ;D

And I bought a model (not built yet)

http://www.sharkit.com/sharkit/MD750/MD7500.htm

 

[ivran]

Any information or 3view of CY-1 VG plane, or some B-class, this all projects is dry Gold, thanks JCC,Alanqa and all acters, to shere this pictures and drawing

 

[sferrin]

Difficult to fly to mach 2.5 for planes (F1, 2000 and 4000) that are limited to mach 2.2 because of the heat barrier (it's, in any case, what said Marcel Dassault in the french TV years ago). The fastest Mirage was the not M53 bi-engined VG G8, with mach 2.34, thanks to its folded wings.

I read somewhere that the F-1E, that was to be offered in competition to the YF-16, would have had titanium leading edges to enable it to reach Mach 2.5. Is there any truth to that?

 

[Deltafan]

Difficult to fly to mach 2.5 for planes (F1, 2000 and 4000) that are limited to mach 2.2 because of the heat barrier (it's, in any case, what said Marcel Dassault in the french TV years ago). The fastest Mirage was the not M53 bi-engined VG G8, with mach 2.34, thanks to its folded wings.

I read somewhere that the F-1E, that was to be offered in competition to the YF-16, would have had titanium leading edges to enable it to reach Mach 2.5. Is there any truth to that?

Hi,

AFAIK, titanium leading edges were foreseen for the second prototype of the Mirage G4 (they became G8), but, finally, not made on this prototype. They were foreseen for sure for the Mach 2.5 Mirage G8A/Super Mirage, but this program was cancelled before the flight of the almost finished first prototype (that was then scrapped…). I never seen that it was foreseen for the F-1E. But if you have a source, I can maybe made other searches.
Edit : I see in Modern Combat Aircraft 23 : Mirage, of Paul Jackson, Ian Allan Ltd, page 93 :
"(…) as the competition neared its climax, claims and counter claims, allégations and counter allégations passed between the participants. Typical of these was an assertion that the (F1) M53 was cleared for Mach 2.5 - made after the Assemblée Nationale had been told that the F1E could not exceed Mach 2.2 without changes to the cockpit and wing leading edges."
Maybe Dassault made announcements about titanium leading edges for the F1E during this time of "allegations". But difficult to say without the origine of your source.

 

[sferrin]

I want to say it's in this book right here but it's been years since I looked, and I don't have it at hand at the moment. I can look tonight if you don't have it.

 

[Deltafan]

I Don't have this book.

It would be interesting to know what is wrote exactly (and who wrote this).

 

[Antonio]

I Don't have this book.

It would be interesting to know what is wrote exactly (and who wrote this).

I have a copy of this book. Please let me know what do you exactly need and I'll attach it

 

[Deltafan]

For the administrators of the SP : the "quote" option has disappeared from my screen


Well, for Antonio :

We look for an excerpt where it is said, overall, that "the F-1E, that was to be offered in competition to the YF-16, would have had titanium leading edges to enable it to reach Mach 2.5".

 

[TomS]

For the administrators of the SP : the "quote" option has disappeared from my screen

Just hit "Reply" on a post and it will quote that post in the reply box. Or highlight a part of a post that you want to quote and a reply button will appear next to that highlighted text. That lets you easily quote and reply to only part of a longer post.

 

[Deltafan]

For the administrators of the SP : the "quote" option has disappeared from my screen

Just hit "Reply" on a post and it will quote that post in the reply box. Or highlight a part of a post that you want to quote and a reply button will appear next to that highlighted text. That lets you easily quote and reply to only part of a longer post.

Ah, OK. Thanks

 

[sferrin]

There are no such comments in that book.

This book? It's called "Modern Air Combat" by Bill Gunston. The picture below is from page 96. Obviously I conflated it with an entry in a different book. The context of the one that mentioned titanium leading edges was a description of the F-1E that was to be offered in competition with the YF-16 and Viggen for NATOs next fighter back in the day.

 

[Deltafan]

The picture below is from page 96. Obviously I conflated it with an entry in a different book.
The context of the one that mentioned titanium leading edges was a description of the F-1E that was to be offered in competition with the YF-16 and Viggen for NATOs next fighter back in the day.

The book of Paul Jackson and the book of Bill Gunston show that the possibility was, at least, considered for the F1E/M53. Maybe it was a late proposal of Dassault to win the market (during the "allégations" time). I know that Dassault proposed Fly by Wire (It was under development in France at this time) that would be later added to the F1E when the french FBW would be efficient enough…
Titanium leading edges and modification to cockpit transparency had certainly a big cost for the F1E. And probably a too big cost for Customers who could have the very efficient and relatively cheap F-16...

 

[sferrin]

This from "Air Vectors"

"* One of the interesting footnotes of the Mirage F1 story was that in the 1970s one was built with the SNECMA M53 afterburning bypass turbojet, providing 83.4 kN (8,500 kgp / 18,740 lbf) afterburning thrust. Fit of the M53 demanded structural changes, larger inlets, and heftier landing gear. The external appearance was generally the same, though the fuselage was stretched by 23 centimeters (9 inches) and empty weight increased by a little over 8%. The machine was originally designated "Mirage F1E" until that designation was passed off to the export multirole variant (discussed below) and then "Mirage F1.M53". Initial flight of the one-off aircraft was on 22 December 1974.

The Mirage F1.M53 may have originally been simply an engine testbed, but it seen as a possible contender for a requirement that had been issued by a number of Western European nations to obtain a replacement for the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, then in widespread service but facing obsolescence. However, this "deal of the century" was snagged by the General Dynamics F-16, and work on a second Mirage F1.M53 prototype, which was to be fitted with full multirole combat avionics kit, was abandoned. The M53 was used in the Dassault Mirage 2000 second-generation delta fighter series."

Dassault Mirage F1

There is also this: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/mirage-f1-projects.116/

I'll see if I can track down the quote I mentioned earlier over the weekend.

 

[GTX]

There are no such comments in that book.

This book? It's called "Modern Air Combat" by Bill Gunston. The picture below is from page 96. Obviously I conflated it with an entry in a different book. The context of the one that mentioned titanium leading edges was a description of the F-1E that was to be offered in competition with the YF-16 and Viggen for NATOs next fighter back in the day.

I was specifically looking for mention of titanium leading edges.

 

[Arjen]

Stainless steel would do the job too. With a weight penalty.

 

[Hood]

I've had a look through some books on my shelves, some mentions of the F1.M53 and the original F-1E but no mention of titanium leading edges sadly.

 

[sferrin]

Meh. So far just more, "with modifications to leading edges. . ." but nothing specific. (Tried attaching a couple PDFs but apparently those are a no-go.)

 

[ivran]

Any drawing or 3 view - Dassault Mirage MZI-46Q?, its very inspirative project,

No data for B and C class....?

 

[ivran]

My imagination work to put light on this projects

 

[ivran]

my point of view,

 

[alanqua]

Any drawing or 3 view - Dassault Mirage MZI-46Q?, its very inspirative project,

No data for B and C class....?

MZI46Q plans. I had already uploaded everything in another post on this forum.
REgards
Alain

 

[ivran]

Great drawing, MZ1-46 are impresive design, front view is mising, semi-cyrcling inlet, incredible impresioni on my mind,
REgards

 

[fightingirish]

IMHO, it is probably the Dassault CY-1 as shown in the issue Le Fana de l'aviation N°461 from April 2008. Many thanks to Alexis Rocher, Alain Rataineau and Jean-Christophe Carbonel.
Edit: I was right!
Twitter:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1150670051474923520

https://twitter.com/x/status/1150746053408448512

 

[dan_inbox]

Do you know thw date and estimated speed?
They're not in the Twitter threads.

 

[fightingirish]

Do you know thw date and estimated speed?
They're not in the Twitter threads.

Le Fana de l'aviaton will resolve this questionnaire later on this evening and maybe will post more information and facts.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Ｎord X81 turbo fan ramjet engine report.
You can see detail structure cutaway draｗing and 2D model test report of X81 in this document.
X81 was for CX2 and CY1.
I wonder what is CX1.
Anyway please enjoy French great achievement.

Same concept?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/p-w-stfrj335-wraparound-turbofan-ramjet-stoichiometric-jpg.163288/

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/486375.pdf

 

[blackkite]

Hi! I made following lists.
Deltafan-san's classification method is excellent.
Sorry CX2 has VG wing, and G series is class2(mach4～4.5).

 

[blackkite]

Hi! X81 turbofan ramjet engine.

 

[blackkite]

Hi Russian site.
Please try automatic translator.

Проекты истребителей-перехватчиков компании Dassault, способных развивать скорость M = 3…4 Часть 1 - Альтернативная История

Проекты истребителей-перехватчиков компании Dassault, способных развивать скорость M = 3…4 Часть 1 - Альтернативная История

alternathistory.com

 

[blackkite]

Ram duct shut ⇒Duct burning turbofan engine.
Ram duct open⇒Turbofan ramjet engine.

 

[blackkite]

I compare TF30 and TF306DS shape.
There are no large difference between two engins except exhaust nozzle. Also front fan diameter may be decreased.
I feel that TF306DS exhaust nozzle had ejector function same as J58.
TF306DS narrow part of exhaust gas nozzle increase gas speed for mach3 flight.
Maybe fan, compresssor and turbine brade materials changed to heat resistant materials such as titanium. nickel base alloy for mach 3 high temperature environment.
What is the meaning of DS? Decrease Sectional area?
I understand that TF30 is a afterburning/duct burning turbofan engine.　

M52 was a supercharging ejector ramjet engine? We know the relation between France and Vought.

B2S was a afterburning turbojet engine? Front diameter is small.

M51-30 was a inline turbo-ramjet engine?

Excellent J58 textbook.　

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.694.7883&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[blackkite]

When I checked the MD 177-33 fighter side view drawing in page237 of FRENCH SECRET PROJECTS Post War Fighters,
I feel that this engine is TF306DS turbofan engine.
Also in page 233, I can see engine longitudinal section of NORD mach4 fighter. But I can't identify what type engine this is. This engine section is very small.