Convair F-102 Delta Dagger Development and Derivatives

[starviking]

Interesting Convair illustration with a 102 with externally loaded Falcon missiles and bombs.

That’s a lot of hardware! Especially the 4 Falcons! Maybe they were planning to ripple-fire them against any oncoming bogeys?

Also, the port tank on the outboard pylon seems to have a small mouth on it - any ideas what for?

 

[MadRat]

Its always struck me as odd that the 102s were mostly confined to one mission. Clearly the designers had other opportunities in their mind. I did not know about more than one tail. Did production 102s come in more than one tail version over different production blocks?

 

[BlackBat242]

Its always struck me as odd that the 102s were mostly confined to one mission. Clearly the designers had other opportunities in their mind. I did not know about more than one tail. Did production 102s come in more than one tail version over different production blocks?

As was posted earlier in this thread:

Hi!
The F-102A had a problem due to a lack of directional stability after deployment to the unit, and a modification was carried out to increase the size of the vertical stabilizer. The area of the vertical stabilizer was increased by 33%, and the leading edge swept angle was reduced from 60° to 52° 30′. This modification was carried out from the mass-produced No. 66 onwards, and the aircraft before that was also refurbished sequentially.

Source : FAMOUS AIRPLANES OF THE WORLD CONVAIR F-102 DELTA DAGGER

 

[GeorgeA]

Its always struck me as odd that the 102s were mostly confined to one mission. Clearly the designers had other opportunities in their mind. I did not know about more than one tail. Did production 102s come in more than one tail version over different production blocks?

The F-102 was the first iteration of the MX-1554/WS-201/“1954 interceptor” requirement and was optimized to operate within the SAGE system to shoot down bombers. That was why it was built, and any other potential mission was clearly secondary to that.

 

[apparition13]

That’s a lot of hardware! Especially the 4 Falcons! Maybe they were planning to ripple-fire them against any oncoming bogeys?

Also, the port tank on the outboard pylon seems to have a small mouth on it - any ideas what for?

Gun pod?

 

[Hood]

Could be a camera, the RAF did play around with putting forward-facing cameras into the front end of fuel tanks.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

F-102 "Delta-Dagger"

Hist'Aero vous propose de découvrir des sujets peu connus ou oubliés de l'histoire aéronautique ou spatiale

histaero.blogspot.com

 

[sferrin]

Interesting Convair illustration with a 102 with externally loaded Falcon missiles and bombs.

Apparently they also experimented with a J75-powered F-102 but I'm not sure why. If you wanted a J75-powered F-102 you'd call it an F-106.

 

[fightingirish]

Interesting Convair illustration with a 102 with externally loaded Falcon missiles and bombs.

The source is SDASM flickr archive.

 

[Pioneer]

That’s a lot of hardware! Especially the 4 Falcons! Maybe they were planning to ripple-fire them against any oncoming bogeys?

Also, the port tank on the outboard pylon seems to have a small mouth on it - any ideas what for?

Good observation starviking !
Now that has my brain hurting....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

That’s a lot of hardware! Especially the 4 Falcons! Maybe they were planning to ripple-fire them against any oncoming bogeys?

Also, the port tank on the outboard pylon seems to have a small mouth on it - any ideas what for?

Given the depiction of wing pylons, it makes one wonder why Convair/USAF never contemplated the incorporation of Aim-7 Sparrow's in place of the Aim-4's - whilst utilising the weapons bay for fuel?
Convair might have gained better export potential of the F-102 with such a configuration....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Christopher Wang]

Some pages from a Conviar 1959 study for a strike attack F-102.

Was any thought given to installing the M61 Vulcan into the center bay as was done with the F-106 Delta Dart under PROJECT SIX SHOOTER? If so, would the center bay doors and rockets have been removed?

Also, could each of the side bays be modified to carry an AIM-9 Sidewinder?

 

[blackkite]

The F-106A fighter, modified six-shooter, has a magazine, feed system, and control unit in the Genie's mounting space, and a pack containing the main body of the M61A Vulcan gun mounted on the centerline of the rear weapon bay. It was a modification that was compatible with the Genie, but the conversion was a laborious task that took more than 8 hours even for a veteran maintenance worker.

Convair F-106 Delta Dart Ideas and Inspiration

Convair F-106 Delta Dart Ideas and Inspiration

beyondthesprues.com

 

[Ivan Culjak]

The F-102 Delta Dagger had a three-segment internal weapons bay under the fuselage for up to six AIM-4 Falcons. Were there ever plans / proposals to replace the six AIM-4 Falcons with perhaps three AIM-9 Sidewinders? I assume that one AIM-9 Sidewinder would take the space of two AIM-4 Falcons.

But why to do that..with an internal weapon bay, Dagger could go in a direction of stealth ....joke ..
But this is a beutiful aircraft, just like name Delta Dagger

 

[NMaude]

But this is a beutiful aircraft, just like name Delta Dagger

I think the Delta Dart is better looking.

 

[BlackBat242]

That belongs in the F-106 thread, not the F-102 one.

 

[Christopher Wang]

The F-106A fighter, modified six-shooter, has a magazine, feed system, and control unit in the Genie's mounting space, and a pack containing the main body of the M61A Vulcan gun mounted on the centerline of the rear weapon bay. It was a modification that was compatible with the Genie, but the conversion was a laborious task that took more than 8 hours even for a veteran maintenance worker.

Convair F-106 Delta Dart Ideas and Inspiration

Convair F-106 Delta Dart Ideas and Inspiration

beyondthesprues.com

Were there ever any plans or was it even possible to fit the same M61 Vulcan cannon pack into the F-102 Delta Dagger's center bay?

 

[Christopher Wang]

Here's a comparison of the proposed fighter-bomber loadouts for the F-102 Delta Dagger (top) and F-106 Delta Dart (bottom):

SOURCE: Hemphill, T. M. (1959, June). F102 Strike Attack Airplane Miscellaneous Studies (Report No. ZP8-063). San Diego, CA: Convair. Retrieved from https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...development-and-derivatives.20543/post-675871


SOURCE: Barbier, D. (2017). World's Fastest Single-Engine Jet Aircraft: The Story of Convair's F-106 Delta Dart Interceptor. Specialty Press.

 

[blackkite]

Photo Galleries | F-106 Delta Dart

Photos of the F-106 Delta Dart the Ultimate USAF Interceptor

www.f-106deltadart.com

"Conceptual JASDF/Convair F-106J’s from the 101st SQ 3rd AW: During the 1960s Convair attempted to interest foreign customers in the F-106 Delta Dart. Proposals were issued to Canada, West Germany, and Japan. None were sold to allies. Erik Simonsen photo/illustration. The Delta Dart was never exported to foreign air forces. There was a proposal for an F-106 version for Japan (F-106J) with an MG-10 fire control system (the same one that was fitted to the F-102A Delta Dagger) and six Super Falcon missiles. It was also to have ground-attack capability, with a pair of pylons underneath each wing capable of carrying bombs or fuel tanks. The Japanese sale never took place and several years later Japan undertook manufacture of the F-4EJ Phantom. A pair of F-106's were displayed at the 25th Paris Air Show in June of 1963, but no customers were forthcoming. Convair tried to interest Canada in a Canadian version-not merely as in interceptor but also for the strike role. Nothing ever came of this idea. There were also plans for F-106 final assembly and production in Germany, but these plans never reached fruition."

 

[blackkite]

Hi! F-102A case x wing and case xx wing.

F-102 Case X and Case XX identicaton

oldsargesaircraft.blogspot.com

"F-102 Case X and Case XX identicaton​

Here is a reference to the difference between the Case X & Case XX.


Check the Serial number of the bird you're going to build:

Case X (flat trailing edge wing and rectangular shaped aileron): Serial numbers- 53-1790 to 56-1316

Case XX (curved trailing edge and angled outboard aileron edge): serial numbers 56-1317 to 57-0909

Sometimes you see the Serial number with a "0" proceeding it (most of the ANG birds from the 70s) for example "0-70909" would be 57-0909. "

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

AirWingMedia.com » Convair F-102 & F-106 PDF eBook & Flight Manuals

airwingmedia.com

File:Convair TF-102A Delta Dagger 3-view line drawing.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[NMaude]

I looked for a suitable F-102 thread for the below video but there wasn't a suitable general F-102 thread so I decided to post it here:

At about two in the afternoon of the 22nd of July 1974 an unusual dogfight took place over the northern Aegean Sea. A pair of Greek F-5 Freedom Fighters engaged two Turkish F-102 Delta Daggers.

Missiles were fired by both sides. At least one aircraft crashed. Even fifty years on, the exact outcome is the subject of endless debate and no little acrimony. This video gathers the evidence from both sides and attempts to conclude on what happened.

A polite reminder that this is an aviation history channel, not a political one. Please endeavour to keep your comments civil and on the topic.As you would imagine, this is an extraordinarily polarising incident, with a great deal of vitriol on hearsay on both sides. With that in mind, some sources:

This forum post has the most complete version of the original Greek account of the incident: https://forum.milavia.net/military-ai...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...dagger-vs-f-5a-freedom-fighter/&v=EoEcNprxhyA

A very old, but nonetheless well researched view on all the events of 1974. Note that at this stage it wasn't clear to people that there was only one engagement between F-5s and F-102s because of the date error in the original Skamparthonis accounts: https://archive.ph/BPj3Ihttps://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...JpOA&q=https://archive.ph/BPj3I&v=EoEcNprxhyA

The book "F-102 Delta Dagger in Turkish Air Force" by Levent Başara was hard to get hold of but does recount elements of the Turkish version of events. No references are provided. It is, however, an overall interesting read if you're extremely committed to learning about the Turkish Air Force!

Reference to the Greek F-4 crew that overheard the dogfight: http://www.fotodigimarco.eu/Aerei/And...

 

[barbara_em]

Did I actually read or simply imagine that the TF-102 was used in SEA as a fast FAC a few times?

 

[NMaude]

Did I actually read or simply imagine that the TF-102 was used in SEA as a fast FAC a few times?

It's possible, I do know that F-102As were briefly deployed to South Vietnam but they didn't do well and IIRC at least one was shot down (I can't remember if it was by a MiG, a SAM or AAA).

 

[DesScorp]

It's possible, I do know that F-102As were briefly deployed to South Vietnam but they didn't do well and IIRC at least one was shot down (I can't remember if it was by a MiG, a SAM or AAA).

The F-102 was designed and built in a strange time; we were transitioning from the subsonic world of gun-zoomie fighters like the F-86 to the world of supersonic, push-button missile barges. It was developed when USAF still thought the threat was waves of subsonic Tupolev bombers, and came into service right as Mach 2 fighter technology and ballistic missiles were developed. It was in a way almost obsolete as it was rolling off the production line, just as many other craft of the age were. It was built for one job, and it was already outclassed in that job as soon as it hit the squadrons. Technology just changed too fast. The old 90's Weird Al Yankovic joke about his computer being obsolete as soon as he opened the box was true for a whole slate of aircraft designed and built in the mid-50's transition period. Now we build and use fighters for 30-40 years. Some fighters built in this period were pulled from frontline service after a mere 7 or 8 years (Hello, F3H Demon). The F-102 suffered from being developed in this transition period.

Just speculation, but I've wondered if the TF-102 two seater variants couldn't have been modified to be Wild Weasel aircraft. We would have gotten more use out of them.

 

[Dynoman]

I do know that F-102As were briefly deployed to South Vietnam but they didn't do well

The F-102 was deployed to Vietnam in the 64th and 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadrons at Clark AFB in the Philippines. They were deployed during the conflict for 8 years and saw action against MiGs over Vietnam and Laos. Most missions were escort missions or patrolling. A detachment was sent to Da Nang, Tan Son Nut, and Udorn Air Bases. While escorting B-52s and EB-66s during Arc Light is when a MiG-21 shot down one of the F-102s. I believe the attached video describes the incident.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIwKSH9K0w

 

[NMaude]

Some fighters built in this period were pulled from frontline service after a mere 7 or 8 years (Hello, F3H Demon).

The McDonnell F-3 Demon I understand was overall a decent interceptor but the problem with it is that it was saddled with the Westinghouse J-40 turbojet which turned out to be a lemon and it was replaced by the J-71, frankly it would've done much better if the replacement had been a J-79.

 

[zjz]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1852576378891157814

View: https://x.com/beanhowitzer/status/1852576378891157814

 

[BlackBat242]

The McDonnell F-3 Demon I understand was overall a decent interceptor but the problem with it is that it was saddled with the Westinghouse J-40 turbojet which turned out to be a lemon and it was replaced by the J-71, frankly it would've done much better if the replacement had been a J-79.

Or the J57, which was smaller (40.02" diameter vs 42" and shorter), lighter (3,495 lb vs 4,090 lb), and more-reliable than the J71 while producing the same thrust (although it used 10% more fuel).

Of course, by the time the F3H-2 & -3 series were entering production in 1955 the J57 was also being used in the F4D, F-100, F-101, F-102, A3D, the B-57, and the B-52 - so there would be few available.

The J79 wasn't out of development and into production until 1957 - when it was being put into the F4H, F-104, B-58, and A3J, leading to a similar "no excess production" situation.

 

[NMaude]

What about the J-52?

 

[BlackBat242]

What about the J-52?

There was no afterburning version of the J52... ever... unless you include the Viggen's RM8 - which is an afterburning version of the JT8D - which was a turbofan using a J52 core.

I must update my above post - I forgot the J71 in the Demon had an afterburner... so I have to change my J57 comparison.

The most-comparable J57 to the J71-2 (14,000 lb in AB) & J71-7 (14,400 lb in AB) is the J57-8 of the F4D (1954)- which weighed 4,750 lb (the afterburning J71 weighed 4,869 lb so little weight difference) and produced 10,200 lb dry and 16,000 lb in AB.

SO only 119 lb lighter and 200 lb thrust more for cruise etc - but 2,000 lb more thrust for take-off and combat maneuvering! That would be a useful difference, but there would still be issues in production availability.

 

[GTX]

There was no afterburning version of the J52... ever... unless you include the Viggen's RM8 - which is an afterburning version of the JT8D - which was a turbofan using a J52 core.

There was the PW1216 proposal. This was an after burning derivative of the J52-P409 engine proposed for the GrummanSabre II concept.

 

[allysonca]

By the way, if any of you want I can take some pictures in the photo booth should there be a request.

 

[NMaude]

Grumman Sabre II concept.

I just checked up the wikipedia page on the Sabre II project and while it was cancelled the PRC used the research to create the JF-17 Thunder, the PW1216's augmenter itself was a Chinese design.

 

[BlackBat242]

There was the PW1216 proposal. This was an after burning derivative of the J52-P409 engine proposed for the GrummanSabre II concept.

Yes... proposed - as in: never built, never existed as an actual piece of hardware.

And was in the 1980s... a bit late for the F3H Demon, which is the aircraft we are discussing engines for.