Chinese SAM and ABM

[sferrin]

Does anybody have any info on these or any on Chinese ABM developements? All I have are these two photos and their names.

Thanks.

 

[SOC]

Bottom one is Fan Ji 1, top one is Fan Ji 2.

China's ABM program was underway from 1970-1985. It was called Project 640. Fan Ji 1 was tested twice in 1975 and was based in part on scaled-up HQ-2 SAM technology. Fan Ji 2 was tested five times between 1976 and 1985.

That is all of the information I've been able to uncover so far.

 

[Trident]

What do China's early warning capabilities look like? Surely they must have atleast a rudimentary radar network, even if an operational ABM system is absent?

Fan Ji 1 actually looks quite like a Phoenix with a huge booster rather than a HQ-2.

 

[Deino]

Just found at the CMF (http://centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/plaboard?cmd=get&cG=33736333635343&zu=33373633363534&v=2&gV=0&p=)

FJ-1 (counter strike 1) 1969-1980

FJ-2 1970-1973

FJ-3 1974-1977

FW-1 (anti satellite 1) 1977-?

 

[Deino]

What do China's early warning capabilities look like? Surely they must have atleast a rudimentary radar network, even if an operational ABM system is absent?

construction started in 1976, provided missile warning and space tracking during the 1980s. Project declassified in 1999

 

[Deino]

Prototype built in 1959, improvements made from 1965-1970. Located in base26, Yunnan province. Provided early warning to the NVA during the Vietnam war, also used in space tracking and research.

 

[Trident]

Excellent stuff, thanks! Any idea where phased array is located? Perhaps GoogleEarth has some interestig coverage...

 

[Deino]

Maybe a new site ???

http://top81.jschina.com.cn/top81bbs/thread.php?cid=1&rootid=3486463&id=3486463

 

[SOC]

That's the BMEW site in Taiwan.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The PRC nearly got a windfall, likely by accident!:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?206236-Patriot-missiles-found-in-a-ship-at-Kotka-Finland

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?206238-Cargo-ship-held-in-finnish-port(suspected-arms-smuggling)

 

[Grey Havoc]

Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship (BBC News)

The Finnish authorities have impounded an Isle of Man-flagged ship bound for China with undeclared missiles and explosives, officials say.

Police are questioning the crew of the MS Thor Liberty after what were described as 69 Patriot anti-missile missiles were found aboard.

Interior Minister Paivi Rasanen said the missiles were marked "fireworks".

The MS Thor Liberty had docked in the Finnish port of Kotka after leaving Germany last week.

Dock workers became suspicious after finding explosives poorly stored on open pallets, and the missiles were then found in containers marked "fireworks".

 

[TomS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/finnish-police-detain-ukrainian-captain-officer-in-missile-and-explosive-shipment/2011/12/22/gIQAMWPOBP_story.html

A spokesman for Germany’s Defense Ministry said the missiles were an official shipment that was fully declared and had all necessary clearings from German authorities.


“Those Patriot guided missiles are from the Bundeswehr’s stocks and have been shipped to South Korea” according to an intergovernmental treaty, he said, declining to be named in line with government policy.

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Finland_says_missile_ship_free_to_leave_999.html

Finnish customs are investigating the case as one of illegal export of defence material.

A German defence ministry spokesman said the Patriot missiles, produced by US firm Raytheon, came from the German military and were destined for South Korea.

He said it was a "legal sale on the basis of an accord between two states at the government level". He said the transaction had received an official export authorisation and was reported to customs authorities.

However Finland said Friday it had not received the paperwork required from Germany.

 

[antigravite]

http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2010-02/05/content_19375866.htm

 

[Grey Havoc]

Sixty-nine Patriot missiles impounded in Finland after being found on a merchant vessel in mid-December were headed for South Korea, the Finnish government said Wednesday, granting their transit through Finnish territory.

"The missiles in question had been sold to the Republic of Korea by Germany," the government said in a statement, adding that it had granted a licence to Seoul's "Defence Acquisition Programme Administration to transit through Finnish territory 69 Patriot missiles."

The surface-to-air missiles, produced by US firm Raytheon, were discovered on December 15 aboard the British-registered Thor Liberty docked in the southeastern Finnish port of Kotka.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Helsinki_green-lights_Patriot_missile_shipment_to_SKorea_999.html

 

[Grey Havoc]

Government officials on Wednesday said they had studied the case and decided to grant the Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration a re-export license. It has until the end of August to ship the missiles from Finland.

"There was no reason to delay anymore," Finnish Defense Minister Stefan Wallin said. "Everything is in order."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/finland-grants-transit-permit-patriot-missiles-15286200#.TwcMotRSTXd

 

[Gridlock]

Bloody expensive fireworks, if everything is in order.

 

[RyanC]

China just did another ABM test, it appears to be an exo-atmospheric midcourse intercept. Here's a Xinhua article posted a little bit earlier:


Background information of mid-course interception missile


Xinhua/Globaltimes.cn | January 28, 2013 18:35

The mid-course interception missile is actually comprised of a large booster rocket and interception warhead. The booster is like a carrier rocket, which sends the warhead into the atmosphere while the warhead of the mid-course interceptor is the equivalent of a “small missile”.

This “small missile” is equipped with dynamic, tracking and target recognition systems. The dynamic system drives the warhead and locks its target; the guidance system compiles its targets data, especially infrared signature. These systems track and identify the target, ultimately guiding the warhead to intercept the oncoming projectile.

The most technologically-advanced component of the missile defense system is the interception warhead. In order to reduce its size the structure was designed to be as small as possible. Since accuracy is of the utmost importance, the guidance system is highly sensitive to movement and finely tuned to maintain a lock on its target.

Employing a fast-burning conflagrant booster rocket is necessary in order to deliver the warhead into the atmosphere as rapidly as possible. However, maintaining accuracy at such high speeds is very demanding. If the margin of error goes beyond the comfortable range of the guidance system, the missile may fail to reach its target.

Besides, the mid-course anti-missile system does not only have missiles but also a powerful early warning and monitoring network, which can be used in actual combat.

A ballistic missile reaches mid-course very quickly after being launched. If the system wants to intercept the missile mid-way, it has to identify its target, track and compute its trajectory as fast as possible. After launch, the anti-ballistic missile then is quickly launched and fired on course to release the interception warhead.

Building a perfect mid-course anti-missile interception system is a very complicated project and requires a powerful early warning and monitoring system. The key component of this early warning and monitoring system is a missile early-warning satellite.

 

[sferrin]

China just did another ABM test, it appears to be an exo-atmospheric midcourse intercept. Here's a Xinhua article posted a little bit earlier:


Background information of mid-course interception missile


Xinhua/Globaltimes.cn | January 28, 2013 18:35

The mid-course interception missile is actually comprised of a large booster rocket and interception warhead. The booster is like a carrier rocket, which sends the warhead into the atmosphere while the warhead of the mid-course interceptor is the equivalent of a “small missile”.

This “small missile” is equipped with dynamic, tracking and target recognition systems. The dynamic system drives the warhead and locks its target; the guidance system compiles its targets data, especially infrared signature. These systems track and identify the target, ultimately guiding the warhead to intercept the oncoming projectile.

The most technologically-advanced component of the missile defense system is the interception warhead. In order to reduce its size the structure was designed to be as small as possible. Since accuracy is of the utmost importance, the guidance system is highly sensitive to movement and finely tuned to maintain a lock on its target.

Employing a fast-burning conflagrant booster rocket is necessary in order to deliver the warhead into the atmosphere as rapidly as possible. However, maintaining accuracy at such high speeds is very demanding. If the margin of error goes beyond the comfortable range of the guidance system, the missile may fail to reach its target.

Besides, the mid-course anti-missile system does not only have missiles but also a powerful early warning and monitoring network, which can be used in actual combat.

A ballistic missile reaches mid-course very quickly after being launched. If the system wants to intercept the missile mid-way, it has to identify its target, track and compute its trajectory as fast as possible. After launch, the anti-ballistic missile then is quickly launched and fired on course to release the interception warhead.

Building a perfect mid-course anti-missile interception system is a very complicated project and requires a powerful early warning and monitoring system. The key component of this early warning and monitoring system is a missile early-warning satellite.

Sounds like they were able to get KEI to work.

 

[RyanC]

I'm not quite sure. KEI was very bleeding edge.

They might be using a more energetic propellant solution or faster burning motor for their first stage than is US/Russian custom for GBI or Galosh; because of the unique conditions that China faces for ABM.

 

[sferrin]

I'm not quite sure. KEI was very bleeding edge.

They might be using a more energetic propellant solution or faster burning motor for their first stage than is US/Russian custom for GBI or Galosh; because of the unique conditions that China faces for ABM.

I wonder what kind of performance Spartan might have had if they'd swapped out that heavy 5 Mt warhead with a KKV.

 

[chuck4]

I'm not quite sure. KEI was very bleeding edge.

They might be using a more energetic propellant solution or faster burning motor for their first stage than is US/Russian custom for GBI or Galosh; because of the unique conditions that China faces for ABM.

I believe their first stage is a standard MRBM booster. Likely to have lots of total energy due to it's size, but seems unlikely to have phenomenal acceleration.

 

[RyanC]

I wonder what kind of performance Spartan might have had if they'd swapped out that heavy 5 Mt warhead with a KKV.

Did you go read the latest stuff I posted in the SPRINT/SPARTAN thread? They had a lot of proposals, such as mounting a lighter 1MT warhead in a new third stage, along with 50-60 second loiter capability; or MIRVing KKVs in an early implementation of MKV -- basically, the central warhead would have a large sensor which would identify all the targets, decoys, balloons, warheads, missile bus; then calculate trajectories to hit them, and then pass them off to the unguided HIT interceptors clustered in the warhead, which would then fire off and hit everything that was a threat.

 

[RyanC]

I can't help but wonder what the final configuration of the Chinese ABM system will be. It probably won't be a single site like the US due to the different threat tubes (see attached image), and probably will be different systems due to the different threat levels.

NOTE: Possible SLBM tubes omitted for clarity.


The US only has to worry about Ballistic missiles from basically one contiguous side (Northwest to North); while China has to worry about them from no less than three sides (West to East).

Not all that horrible, since the Chinese designers basically can concentrate their Heavy ABM assets in the F.E. Warren threat tube; and concentrate Light ABM assets on the other sides; since the threats from those angles will be IRBMs and MRBMs.

At some point though, the Chinese will need to worry about upgrading those Light ABM assets; since theoretically, the Russians/Indians/Pakistanis/Japanese/Koreans could develop a slightly plus-sized IRBM/MRBM that is larger than is needed for a minimum energy trajectory, with the extra mass devoted to more propellant for a higher burnout speed.

 

[Deino]

Hmmm ... to admit, not my topic, but that's what I found:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTA3NzU1MDA4.html
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/132148270.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/132148279.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/132140398.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/132141301.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/195003o1bmceubnu4n4mcm.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/195004wsxnyjsznzx2d49g.jpg
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv122/dy19821022/095734bfefocfz83ihffkf.jpg

 

[chuck4]

I don't think the Chinese can conceivably provide worthwhile level of protection against ICBM and SLBM threat from the US or Russia in the foreseeable future. I think they will primarily be focused on protecting population center of Eastern china from Indian IRBM and light ICBM for now.

 

[Forest Green]

中国成功实施陆基中段反导拦截技术试验 - 中华人民共和国国防部

www.mod.gov.cn

China successfully conducts test of land-based mid-course anti-missile interception technology​

On the evening of April 14, 2023, China conducted a test of land-based mid-course anti-missile interception technology in its territory, and the test achieved the expected purpose. This test is defensive and not directed at any country.

 

[Forest Green]

China’s new HQ-19 surface-to-air missile system aims to rival US THAAD with advanced interception capabilities

China’s new HQ-19 surface-to-air missile system aims to rival US THAAD with advanced interception capabilities

armyrecognition.com

 

[snne]

China’s new HQ-19 surface-to-air missile system aims to rival US THAAD with advanced interception capabilities

China’s new HQ-19 surface-to-air missile system aims to rival US THAAD with advanced interception capabilities

armyrecognition.com

It is not intended to rival the current THAAD system (it is more like the THAAD-ER concept instead) and is neither new ( it had been around for a couple of years when we first got a sight of it and varying rumors suggest that it has been in service since ~2016-ish or 2020 at latest).

Make of that what you will but Western-centric journalists really have to up their game if they really want our attention...

 

[stealthflanker]

The HQ-19 TEL, seems close in dimension to Russian MZKT-7930 "Astrolog"



This give indication of the height. Based on the wheel it should be about 1.4 meter in diameter.

Taking that as reference, the first photos which depict the side of the vehicle indicates the following :

Total vehicle length (excluding the protruded attachment of te missiles) : 12.9 meter
Height : 3.3=3.6 meter
Width : about 2.5-3 meter (very rough tho from missile counts)

The missile canister is about 7.8 meter in length and diameter of about 78 cm (length :diameter ratio of 10). The missile inside might be about 7 meter long and 70-75 cm in diameter. The weight of the missile is based on E.Fleeman's Tactical missile design guide can be approximated to be 3.7 metric tonne.

 

[totoro]

I am not sure those tires are 1.4 in diameter. If they are, people would be quite tall, like close to 1.9 m tall.

Of course, knowing exact tire model or truck model would help tremendously in sizing up the missiles.
On another forum I did the measurement assuming 1.75 m height of the people and got something like 5.85 m long containers, 0.65 m wide. (excluding the gas canister at the bottom of the container)

 

[stealthflanker]

I am not sure those tires are 1.4 in diameter. If they are, people would be quite tall, like close to 1.9 m tall.

Of course, knowing exact tire model or truck model would help tremendously in sizing up the missiles.
On another forum I did the measurement assuming 1.75 m height of the people and got something like 5.85 m long containers, 0.65 m wide. (excluding the gas canister at the bottom of the container)

Yeah. I agree

I probably being way too genereous with the tire diameter. As i was comparing with this other Taian special vehicle truck

泰安航天特种车有限公司

泰安航天特种车有限公司坐落在雄伟壮丽的泰山脚下，隶属于中国航天科技集团有限公司一院（中国运载火箭技术研究院），是国家定点生产特种汽车的国有企业...

www.tasv.cn

The height made me assume the 1.4 m tire as MZKT-7930. Actually measured it with available dimension indicates smaller tire. 1.28 m or 1.2 m.

 

[snne]

Nice summary

https://twitter.com/x/status/1854697449635414460

View: https://x.com/tphuang/status/1854697449635414460