China COMAC 919

ov-101 said:
Deino said:
Congrats to a successful maiden flight today ! :)
Click to expand...

Will you write new reports about C919 ？
Click to expand...

Only a short news headline - no report - for Air International.
Why do You ask ?
 
I had read many of you reports about Chinese aviation from Key Publishing’s magazines …And I think you will not miss maiden flight of C919 :)
 
ov-101 said:
I had read many of you reports about Chinese aviation from Key Publishing’s magazines …And I think you will not miss maiden flight of C919 :)
Click to expand...

Thanks and You are correct, but unfortunately they wanted only a brief news-report.

Anyway ... if You have anything to correct on these reports, critics are always welcome.

Deino
 
Second prototype had its maiden flight this morning ! So congrats to COMAC.
 

Attachments

  • COMAC C919 no. 02 - 20171217 maiden flight - 1.jpg
    COMAC C919 no. 02 - 20171217 maiden flight - 1.jpg
    44.6 KB · Views: 35
  • COMAC C919 no. 02 - 20171217 maiden flight - 2.jpg
    COMAC C919 no. 02 - 20171217 maiden flight - 2.jpg
    268.5 KB · Views: 45

Article author: Sergey Morozov (Ukraine), winner of the Friendship Prize of the Chinese government, visiting specialist of the Shanghai Aviation Design and Research Institute (SADRI)



On May 5, 2017, a large Chinese-made C919 aircraft successfully completed its first test flight at Shanghai Pudong International Airport. I was honored to witness this great and inspiring moment in the history of aviation. Although I myself am from Ukraine, but when I saw the C919 soaring into the blue sky, I experienced incomparable pride.

I worked for 28 years in the Ukrainian Antonov aircraft concern, and then I was invited to work by the Chinese Avicorporation Avic as an expert in testing automatic control systems for transport aircraft. In 2012, I joined the Shanghai Aviation Design and Research Institute (SADRI) at COMAC. My institute takes on the important task of designing and developing large aircraft; I am mainly responsible for the study of the C919 aircraft control system. My colleagues are mainly young people who graduated from Chinese aviation institutes, I am enthusiastic to cooperate with them. In China, a large population, the development of civil aviation can not only meet the demand of people in transport, but also creates many jobs.

The first flight of the C919 is just the beginning. We must continue to make efforts, we cannot relax for a minute. After the first flight, customers often visit our company, they have very high hopes for us. I am sure that if we step by step will persistently move forward, we will certainly achieve success.

Before arriving in China, I knew practically nothing about this country. My native language is Russian and I usually communicate with my colleagues in English. When they misunderstand me, I write, draw and gesticulate. I also learn simple Chinese phrases from staff. After a few years, I can say a lot in Chinese. Today, I feel that I have truly integrated into this beautiful country. In 2018, I received a certificate of permanent residence permit for foreigners. I carry this document in my outerwear pocket and occasionally show it to others.

For 70 years, China has achieved development successes that have attracted worldwide attention. China's significant progress in various industries has laid a solid foundation for research. As for the aviation industry, in recent years, the ARJ21 short-range aircraft has already been put into commercial operation, the C919 made its first test flight. China's civil aviation is entering a new period of dynamic development. I express confidence that in the future more passenger aircraft developed by China on its own will soar in the sky.
Click to expand...
 
A bit dated this thread since it missed the maiden flights of no. 103 (2018/12/28), 104 (2019/08/01) and 105 (2019/10/24) ;)

COMAC C919 no. 03 maiden flight - 20181228 - 1.jpg COMAC C919 no. 04 maiden flight - 20190801 - 1.jpg COMAC C919 no. 105 - maiden flight 20191024 - 1.1.jpg
 
Schedule and sanctions:
But Zhao Keliang, a deputy chief designer of the C919 project, said in recent local press interviews that many foreign companies continue to support the airliner project and that GE and its partners would still ship engines to Comac to fulfill their contractual obligations, as the related deals were signed before Trump’s imposed sanctions.
-------
Wu Guanghui, the program’s lead designer, was recently quoted by a WeChat news account maintained by Shanghai government’s Media Office as saying that the C919 was on track to secure European Union Aviation Safety Agency’s (EASA) market entry approval by the end of the year.

He said the C919 has recently wrapped up its EASA extreme low-temperature tests over 23 days in January at -35 degrees Celcius, according to the report.

Wu also said testing conducted in the airspace above China’s alpine Qinghai-Tibet plateau had progressed at “warp speed,” cramming the usual half-year of testing into about three weeks with data fed live to EASA technicians.
Click to expand...
Design challenge:
“We found in test flights after the C919’s maiden flight back in May 2017, already three years later than originally planned, that the initial fuselage was too heavy and bulky and to get it airborne GE’s engine consumed more fuel than designed,” said the designer, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

“There are two ways to solve this: to fly the same fuselage but we need bigger wing tanks for additional fuel – that means less fuel efficiency and likely a shorter range. Or we can trim the size and weight of the fuselage, but then we have to sacrifice payloads like the plane’s passenger and cargo load,” the Comac technician said.

“Either way we take, the C919 will be far less competitive compared with [Boeing] 737s and [Airbus] 320s. Then we decided to make use of cutting-edge composite material like special aluminum to make lighter airframes.”
Click to expand...

asiatimes.com

China’s C919 jet rises above tech war turbulence

The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (Comac) says that its C919 homegrown, narrow-body jetliner is on schedule to take to the skies this year, despite geopolitical headwinds that had threat…
asiatimes.com asiatimes.com
 
From aluminium to aluminium the change would be minimals (you use thinner sheet of metal but with better load tolerance or honeycomb sandwich for the internal structure).
 
China Eastern Airlines, which is the launch customer, signed a firm order on Monday to buy 5 C919 jets.
Click to expand...

And the launch of a new engine (the CJ1000) to power the C919 (that suffer from a slight overweight - see posts above) :

reuters.com

China outlines push to develop domestic engine for C919 jet in five-year plan

China will push forward with the development of CJ1000, a turbofan jet engine designed to power the homemade C919 narrowbody aircraft, the government said on Friday in its development plan for the 2021-2025 period.
reuters.com reuters.com
 
www.flightglobal.com

CR929 windtunnel tests focus on twinjet’s wing-tip configuration

Aerodynamic analysis of the Chinese-Russian long-haul CRAIC CR929 twinjet is progressing, with windtunnel tests to examine wing designs for the type. Models of the CR929 have undergone windtunnel testing at the Moscow Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute, with previous studies looking at cruise...
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
 
leehamnews.com

2022 Forecast: C919 EIS unlikely before 2023-24 - Leeham News and Analysis

Subscription Required By Scott Hamilton Introduction Jan. 17, 2022, © Leeham News: COMAC, the Chinese aerospace company developing the C919, suffered yet another setback last year. It hoped to deliver the first aircraft, designed to compete with the... Read More
leehamnews.com leehamnews.com

I have no idea how accurate this source is, but if true, the C919 program is in serious trouble. Massive certification delays are one thing, but having an overweight airframe with degraded performance will absolutely destroy any chance of meaningful export sales. To save face, the domestic airlines will have this aircraft rammed down their throats whether they like it or not. Also, how can this program be only 15% through certification test flying when the first flight was back in 2017 ?
 
I think that ever since the events of 2018/2019 the political barriers were a given. So there wouldn't be a serious export sale of the plane outside China anyway, no matter the performance.

As for sales within China, I guess it's possible that a certain number HAVE to be purchased by state owned airlines.
But also, the way I am looking at gas prices and fuel burn data - I don't see it impossible if C919 could actually compete even if being somewhat overweight and with high fuel consumption. If the data below, that I've found, is correct:

1. A320 burns $2030 worth of fuel per hour. A320 Neo burns $190 worth of fuel per hour less.
2. A320 has a list price of $101 million. A320 Neo has a list price of $110 million.
3. If you're a huge customer, ordering dozens of planes at once and don't mind waiting a few years - Airbus will give you a huge discount. Allegedly, discounts of up to 50% off the list price were not unheard of.
4. A320 airframe life is some 60 000 flight hours. Which is usually spent within 25 years, and then the plane is retired.

So... IF C919 can manage A320 fuel burn figures, and if the plane flies 2400 hours per year, it will use $456 000 worth of fuel more than A320 neo within one year. Within 25 years that will rise to $11.4 million more. So, as long as C919 real pricetag can be kept, say, 12 million less than A320 neo with a 50% discount - meaning under $43 million - the C919 might be competitive enough for the domestic Chinese airlines. If Airbus manages to make A320 neo profitable even if it's sold at just $55 million - then I'd say it's plausible COMAC can also eventually sell C919 for 40-ish million and still be profitable.
Probably not in the first several years, until production ramps up and matures, but in the medium term - it's a possibility.
 
totoro said:
I think that ever since the events of 2018/2019 the political barriers were a given. So there wouldn't be a serious export sale of the plane outside China anyway, no matter the performance.

As for sales within China, I guess it's possible that a certain number HAVE to be purchased by state owned airlines.
But also, the way I am looking at gas prices and fuel burn data - I don't see it impossible if C919 could actually compete even if being somewhat overweight and with high fuel consumption. If the data below, that I've found, is correct:

1. A320 burns $2030 worth of fuel per hour. A320 Neo burns $190 worth of fuel per hour less.
2. A320 has a list price of $101 million. A320 Neo has a list price of $110 million.
3. If you're a huge customer, ordering dozens of planes at once and don't mind waiting a few years - Airbus will give you a huge discount. Allegedly, discounts of up to 50% off the list price were not unheard of.
4. A320 airframe life is some 60 000 flight hours. Which is usually spent within 25 years, and then the plane is retired.

So... IF C919 can manage A320 fuel burn figures, and if the plane flies 2400 hours per year, it will use $456 000 worth of fuel more than A320 neo within one year. Within 25 years that will rise to $11.4 million more. So, as long as C919 real pricetag can be kept, say, 12 million less than A320 neo with a 50% discount - meaning under $43 million - the C919 might be competitive enough for the domestic Chinese airlines. If Airbus manages to make A320 neo profitable even if it's sold at just $55 million - then I'd say it's plausible COMAC can also eventually sell C919 for 40-ish million and still be profitable.
Probably not in the first several years, until production ramps up and matures, but in the medium term - it's a possibility.
Click to expand...

You bring up several good points. But another big question mark is how good the technical support for this aircraft is going to be. Chinese aircraft manufacturers have historically been quite abysmal in this field. If dispatch reliability is poor compared to an A320, then the cheaper price tag won't justify the purchase. Based on the stories I've heard about the dismal reliability of the ARJ-21, China still has a long way to go before their domestic industry matches the level of reliability, maintenance and in-service support that Airbus and Boeing offers.

According to an old article published in 2017, China was expecting sales of almost 2,000 airframes spread out over 20 years. Have they made any investments into creating the massive infrastructure that will be needed to support all these airliners once they enter service ? Cause honestly, I have not heard anything.
 
Last edited:
alberchico said:
Also, how can this program be only 15% through certification test flying when the first flight was back in 2017 ?
Click to expand...

A chap I know worked as a contractor within COMAC and he told me the following;- Program planning was obsessive with a vast team of people attempting to do it, but just getting in the way of everything. In the end most of the planners became historian. Also their planning only went up to first flight, whereupon it ceased. So after the first flight celebration they had little in place for the certification flight test program, thus discovering the aircraft was not equipped to provide the necessary verification. This lead to a six month pause before a useful flight test took place, in which time the next phase was planned and instrumentation installed. This was repeated when the next production article left the production line.

However he said don’t underestimate these guys;- they’re inexperienced but learn fast and their sponsor, the Chinese government has plenty more patience, money and ambition.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
alberchico said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1551076118836326400
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/status/1551076118836326400


I had no idea they used so many prototypes during the certification program. Rumors are that the official handover to China Eastern may come as soon as next month.
Click to expand...
Western manufacturers typically built three or more pre-production airframes to speed up testing. The first prototype typically does the glamorous first flight and is devoted to testing stability, control and performance. The second prototype is typically ground-tested to destruction. The third and later prototypes are used to flight test various systems: engines, hydraulics, pneumatics, cabin pressurization, electrical, fuel, flight controls, navigation, cabin entertainment, etc. By simultaneously flight-testing two or three systems - in two or three airframes - they can knock many months from flight test programs.
 
The fact that it relies on western components must not distract that this is the first Chinese built passenger plane and that they will quickly learn to manufacture their own components in the future if they are to build more civil aircraft like this.
 
FighterJock said:
The fact that it relies on western components must not distract that this is the first Chinese built passenger plane and that they will quickly learn to manufacture their own components in the future if they are to build more civil aircraft like this.
Click to expand...
Not the first per se, but the largest and the first competitive Chinese passenger aircraft.
 
It is a nice looking aircraft Deino. Looking forward to seeing the first export customers
 
Deino said:
And overall a good looking one ..

View attachment 700571
Click to expand...
Tbh I don't like the windshields but the wing profile is visually pleasing.


I'm not saying it is a copy but it's design is understandably similar to the A320 family.

Isn't it interesting that both COMAC and Yakovlev/Irkut had to differentiate their planes by designing odd looking windshields so that the average person can identify these?
 
Last edited:
www.telegraph.co.uk

China’s plot to seize control of the global jet market

After years of market dominance, the Boeing-Airbus duopoly is facing its biggest threat yet
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Despite keeping a low profile at the annual Farnborough International Airshow last week, the Chinese planemaker Comac still managed to dominate conversation among the 30,000 daily attendees.

At one of the biggest networking events in the aerospace calendar, manufacturing giants including Boeing and Airbus occupied bespoke hubs fitted out with luxurious facilities for entertaining airlines, wooing the press and announcing their next big orders.

Comac (Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China) could easily have funded a multi-floor complex to match its rivals, but made do with a utilitarian, modestly sized structure on the periphery of the show.

A team of about 20 people instead held catch-up meetings with suppliers to the C919, the 180-seat narrow-body plane with which it is seeking to take on the Boeing 737 Max and Airbus A320neo. Whether the company also met with potential buyers, it refused to say.

Airbus praised China’s efforts in bringing the C919 to market, but was also blunt in listing its shortcomings.

Christian Scherer, who heads its jetliner arm, said in a briefing that Comac was already a “serious competitor”, but not one that was capable of taking on Airbus in the technology stakes.

He said: “The C919 is effectively an A320neo, with the same features and the same equipment. There is no differentiation, no new value.

“When Airbus started trying to develop a technological sovereignty in commercial aviation here in Europe 50 years ago, we did not imitate another product. We brought something new that helped us accelerate our market penetration.”

[snip]
Click to expand...

An industry source said Boeing views the C919 as most likely to garner export orders in regions where some airlines would struggle to finance Western jets, such as Africa, parts of Asia and possibly South America.

It goes some way to explaining Comac’s softly-softly approach during the Farnborough International Airshow in what was only its second ever appearance at the event.

However, in one of the cavernous exhibition halls, where companies display everything from the latest widgets to full-sized jet engines, a more overtly ambitious face of the company was evident.

On a brightly lit podium for all to see was a 6ft-long model of a wide-body jet that acted as a magnet for curious onlookers. Dubbed the C929, the proposed plane began life as a joint venture programme before a Russian partner dropped out.

Comac confirmed last year that it would move ahead on its own with plans for three variants with between 250 and 500 seats. Putting the future aircraft front and centre on the display stand seemed to convey a simple message: “We’re here and we’re not going away.”
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
During the A350 design phase I found myself visiting a German system supplier, who also supplied a significant design package to the Comac C919. One of the German system supplier engineers had been sent out to China working with Comac during the C919 design. He told me that whilst there one day, they were grappling with a particular component geometry problem when someone in the room asked “ well, how did Airbus do it?”. At this point one of the Chinese chaps summoned a junior engineer, said something in Chinese and off the junior chap went. Ten minutes later he returned with a copy of a BAESYSTEMS A320 drawing of just the subject parts, with the drawing’s complete including original 1983 signature boxes and update notes.

I thought wow, I knew from experience the legacy A320 drawings were a complex series and if I required a particular drawing it would take our team a least a week to go through the request/configuration control system before it got to me. Then it struck me, hypothetically if I needed an A320 it would be much quicker to phone up Comac and get them to email it to me…. How did it ever come to this?
 
snne said:
https://www.airdatanews.com/brazilian-airline-mulls-order-for-four-comac-c919-jets/
Click to expand...

A piece of advice from long and painful experience with following Russian airliner international sales attempts (Il-96T, Tu-204-X20, SSJ100): Don't believe it until you see the aircraft in the livery. Never mind, don't believe it until actual entry into service... I have a depressing folder of photos showing Tu-204s (Air China Cargo, China Southern Cargo) and SSJs (Sky Aviation, Lao Central Airlines) painted in various brilliant colour schemes they still never ended up serving in. And that goes *especially* for tiny, obscure operators in emerging markets that are liable to go defunct at any point before delivery.

Oh, and beware of the dreaded "memorandum of understanding" or "letter of intent" (as opposed to firm contract) - they may carry the signatures of real people, but their legal binding force is virtually zero. Again, until actual EIS, I recommend not bothering to so much as seriously discuss such informal, preliminary talks. The C919 doesn't even have a Western type certificate yet (the Russian aircraft mentioned above already did at the time of negotiation, and still the deals kept falling through left and right). I suppose the way the world is right now the C919 will eventually manage to establish itself, but it's going to be a long and tortuous road littered with false starts to that point.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom