Chengdu J-20 pictures, analysis and speculation Part II

[Blitzo]

As mentioned, it's not just the location alone though - there have been plenty of pure fighters/interceptors with dedicated IRSTs mounted below the nose (early F-4s, Draken, MiG-23, MiG-31...), but not one of them has a sensor window allowing straight down and rear visibility as required for level bombing with laser guided bombs, like the J-20 appears to. I don't think the drag penalty for that would be accepted without good reason (compare to the intended integration of the F-22/-23 installations).

I do agree that they could have potentially made the J-20's EOIRST fairing a little smaller if they were only interested in forward sector tracking.

However, I think it is also quite sensible for an EOIRST to be capable of side sector or even rear sector tracking all around the aircraft, which can potentially be quite useful in A2A scenarios as well I imagine.

In other words, I think the geometry of J-20's EOIRST could potentially indicate it has an A2G role but it could also quite reasonably be argued to also fulfill an A2A role -- however the key determinant of whether it is an A2G sensor would be whether it has the laser designator/laser spot tracker capabilities.

Just as with Typhoon and Rafale.

Sure, that analogy does fit I suppose.

 

[donnage99]

A good comparison image I think showing that the J-20 is longer but not necessarily larger. This would fit with an greater emphasis on low supersonic drag, perhaps due to less than ideal engines.

I remember reading a translated post by someone in the know over at one of the chinese forum and apparently one of the reasons, just as you said, the generals want an aircraft that performs well in air to air role even if their engine development doesn't deliver, which dictates the length and shape of the final aircraft, and not so much because they want a high speed missile truck platform to hunt down carriers and awacs like initial western speculation.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

That was my thought. Low supersonic drag is easier to achieve with a long, narrow aircraft than a shorter, fatter one.

 

[LowObservable]

That may be a good point. Today, the Chinese industry is still struggling to deliver an F100/110. An F119/EJ200 is a long way off.

But it's also about fuel capacity....

 

[sferrin]

That may be a good point. Today, the Chinese industry is still struggling to deliver an F100/110. An F119/EJ200 is a long way off.

But it's also about fuel capacity....

One wonders why they don't just buy a few hundred "spare" engines to go with their new Su-35 order. Presumably the Russians wouldn't have a problem selling them the engines as well as the aircraft. That at least gets them something in the interim while they figure out their final engine solution.

 

[totoro]

Logical explanation would be that they already have an engine of similar capability for the interim. We don't know which variant of al31 j20 uses. Some people speculate it is al31fn, but i see absolutely no proof for that. So its equally likely j20 is using perhaps al31fm2, which was last mentioned in 2012 by Salyut as finishing bench testing. Best feature of the mentioned variant is that is compatible with previous al31 variants and is interchangable. Similar thrust to 117s is achieved, but shorter lifespan (only 3000 hrs) is the price paid. Considering that's still pretty good for what PLAAF had to deal with, considering very good relationship of China with Salyut (not so much with Saturn) - i'd say the mentioned variant is still number one candidate for first batches of j-20. It's an engine that China may've had its influence on during development, whereas saturn's 117s was off limits until recently.

 

[VH]

With the looming economic collapse of China I am sure that many ambitious projects sitting on Chinese drawing boards will have to be deferred until better times reappear.

 

[latenlazy]

With the looming economic collapse of China I am sure that many ambitious projects sitting on Chinese drawing boards will have to be deferred until better times reappear.

By looming economic collapse you mean...3-5% GDP growth per annum?

 

[Blitzo]

With the looming economic collapse of China I am sure that many ambitious projects sitting on Chinese drawing boards will have to be deferred until better times reappear.

Gordon Chang, is that you? ;D

 

[VH]

What you are engaged in is called "whistling past the graveyard" . No matter how you try to pretty up the news coming out of China you must face the facts that China is in deep doo-doo and will be lucky to come out of these structural problems with their pants intact.

 

[VH]

Whistle-past-the-graveyard. Verb. (idiomatic, US) To attempt to stay cheerful in a dire situation; to proceed with a task, ignoring an upcoming hazard, hoping for a good outcome. The definition fits the current Chinese situation perfectly.

 

[Blitzo]

We'll see how things will pan out in the next few years, and we can look back on things with a bit more wisdom.

Till then, feel free to continue hoping for a Chinese economic collapse, but let's keep on topic for this thread shall we. If you really want to discuss the Chinese economy there are various threads in other forums more oriented to the topic.

 

[latenlazy]

What you are engaged in is called "whistling past the graveyard" . No matter how you try to pretty up the news coming out of China you must face the facts that China is in deep doo-doo and will be lucky to come out of these structural problems with their pants intact.

The Chinese economy certainly has some serious and challenging problems, but not all economic problems are signs of impending "collapse". What China is facing is a *slowdown* relative to the breakneck GDP growth they have managed to achieve in prior years, not a *recession* which is when growth goes negative. What you're suggesting falls in the same class of thinking as equating the US's recent recession with it's "downfall" (which itself was a pretty silly notion). It reflects a simplistic and highly imprecise understanding of economics.

 

[Blitzo]

The Chinese economy certainly has some serious and challenging problems, but not all economic problems are signs of impending "collapse". What China is facing is a *slowdown* relative to the breakneck GDP growth they have managed to achieve in prior years, not a *recession* which is when growth goes negative. What you're suggesting falls in the same class of thinking as equating the US's recent recession with it's "downfall" (which itself was a pretty silly notion). It reflects a simplistic and highly imprecise understanding of economics.

Shhhh nonono, take that context and nuance out of here, lalala. The stock market is equivalent to China's economy and manufacturing data is the only important thing to look at, and any economic growth below double digits means imminent economic disaster :-X

 

[Deino]

 

[FighterJock]

Looks like the first flight of 2101 is nearly upon us.

 

[VTOLicious]

That was my thought. Low supersonic drag is easier to achieve with a long, narrow aircraft than a shorter, fatter one.

That's how the J-20 might look like, if it would have the same length as the F-22A

 

[FighterJock]

That was my thought. Low supersonic drag is easier to achieve with a long, narrow aircraft than a shorter, fatter one.

That's how the J-20 might look like, if it would have the same length as the F-22A

The graphic looks slightly similar to the J-31 (that is if you take away the canards). That is obviously why the PLAAF went for the J-20 (more range).

 

[Deino]

That was my thought. Low supersonic drag is easier to achieve with a long, narrow aircraft than a shorter, fatter one.

That's how the J-20 might look like, if it would have the same length as the F-22A

The graphic looks slightly similar to the J-31 (that is if you take away the canards). That is obviously why the PLAAF went for the J-20 (more range).

Sorry, but so far the PLAAF went nowhere with the J-31. It's at least for now a "private" issue led by AVIC/SAC and has - at least officially - nothing to do with the PLAAF. Even more there is just one FC-31 demonstrator by now and as You can see the J-20 has just entered LRIP and is the "premier" PLAAF program ...

 

[Deino]

And another LRIP-J-20 !

 

[Trident]

Low rate?!

 

[LowObservable]

Whoever was feeding Intel to Bob Gates in 08-09 needs to be publicly spanked.

 

[Deino]

... brrr ... STOP ... at least this image of '2102' is fake !

 

[sferrin]

Whoever was feeding Intel to Bob Gates in 08-09 needs to be publicly spanked.

I believe it was Gordon England whispering in his ear.

"The latest chapter in this strange litany is Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England's current campaign to kill the F-22 fighter. England played a central role in developing the F-22 while running the business that became Lockheed Martin's fighter unit. He too lost a succession struggle and later went into government. "

Sounds like a case of petty sour grapes. Got overlooked for promotion when LM bought GD so he wanted to stick it to his old coworkers. Classy guy.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2008/01/22/Thompson-Files-Biz-execs-at-Defense-Dept/90651201028050/

 

[FighterJock]

... brrr ... STOP ... at least this image of '2102' is fake !

So there is no 2102 LRIP J-20 (at least not yet), we were all lead up the garden path by fan art again.

 

[Deino]

... brrr ... STOP ... at least this image of '2102' is fake !

So there is no 2102 LRIP J-20 (at least not yet), we were all lead up the garden path by fan art again.

Not really sure to admit: there are several reports about already three LRIP-birds and this image. Even if I surely can't exclude that someone again used the "2" from the confirmed '2101' and fabricated '2102' or even cut it in pieces to puzzle '2103' I think all numbers are different, and each show some unique differences, that are difficult to photoshop ... (at least for me) !

As such I think it is safe to say, this image is clearly a fake, but it is highly likely that there are already three LRIP-J-20s out there.

Deino

 

[Deino]

Maiden flight of '2101' occurred yesterday and reportedly lasted for 40 minutes ... sadly still no images !

 

[Deino]

And our old game again: Come on ... don't be so shy !

 

[Grey Havoc]

In likely related news, via SNAFU: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-19/china-said-to-finalize-plans-for-22-billion-plane-engine-giant

 

[Deino]

Nice family portrait !

 

[Deino]

In the air ...

 

[FighterJock]

In the air ...

At last, a proper photo of 2101 in the air. Wonder what took them so long?

 

[Deino]

In the air ...

At last, a proper photo of 2101 in the air. Wonder what took them so long?

To admit I don't know ... but anyway !

 

[sferrin]

Beautiful plane.

 

[flanker]

It is interesting and cool in a way; but beautiful? Eye of the beholder i guess.

 

[Deino]

Indeed ... there are a few angles in which this beast is simply impressive, but a beauty !??

Here's another one ...

 

[quellish]

Indeed ... there are a few angles in which this beast is simply impressive, but a beauty !??

Here's another one ...

Interesting to see the lengths they are going to to counter diffraction from those trailing edges.
Just as interesting to see where they are not.

 

[Deino]

Happy new Chinese year !

 

[Deino]

It is interesting and cool in a way; but beautiful? Eye of the beholder i guess.

From this angle it Looks simply impressive (IMO) ...

 

[VTOLicious]

Nice comparison

...please note the elevated position of the F-22 pilot.