British armed helicopters

[pzluchs]

I'm looking for JEHU experiments on the arming of helicopters in 50th.

 

[hesham]

What was this Program,

I found only this Info;

https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/286/forbes.pdf

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

There is a thread in this forum about the W.G. 44 stealth attack helicopter and its subsequent variants, which you can find here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/westland-wg-44-47-1980s-stealth-helicopters.29921/

(Photos below are from the thread)

 

[TomS]

What was this Program,

I found only this Info;

https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/286/forbes.pdf

There is lots of information about the Joint Helicopter Experimental Unit, which became the Joint Helicopter Unit for its operational use during the Suez invasion. I didn't find anything about the JHEU working on armed helos, though, just on their experiments with airborne assault using transport helicopters.

 

[hesham]

There is a thread in this forum about the W.G. 44 stealth attack helicopter and its subsequent variants, which you can find here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/westland-wg-44-47-1980s-stealth-helicopters.29921/

no my dear Wyvern,

he spoke about 1950s period.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Oh, my mistake. Sorry.

 

[philip.morten]

There are photographs in the Putnam's Westland volume ( Westland Aircraft Since 1915, Derek James, 1991) showing two Whirlwinds of JEHU in Army markings.

1. A Whirlwind 2 (XK969/'D') with 'an experimental machine-gun installation' , what looks like a water-cooled Vickers machine gun, on tripod, mounted to fire at 90 degrees to the direction of flight, through the main door.
2. A Whirlwind 2 (XK970/'E') with two forward-firing box launchers for 'small air-to-ground milssiles' ( I assume Vigilant) suspended from the hoist mounting.

Both photgraphs are credited to Fred Ballam.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

It seems that some Whirlwinds may have been armed with Nord SS.11s, according to this research thread on the WT Forums which I have taken part in:

British Helicopter Tech Tree - Discussion Topic

Might prove difficult to find images if only 3-4 Whirlwinds of a single squadron (225) were capable but there’s an IWM recording of an oral account of Whirlwind being equipped with SS.11 It’s in the 15th reel of 24, from 10:45 onwards: We got to Singapore, and they demanded that I fly off...

forum.warthunder.com

It seems that a few of the helicopters of 225 Squadron, which operated HAR.10s, were modified to to carry SS.11 ATGMs according to the following sources:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/units/air-historical-branch/regional-studies-post-coldwar-narratives/raf-helicopters-the-first-twenty-years-pt-2-by-wg-cdr-j-r-dowling/

WHIRLWIND HELICOPTER FIRES ROCKETS AND A WESSEX TESTS SS.11 MISSILES [Allocated Title]

(i) A Whirlwind from HMS Albion fires a salvo of 2.75-inch rockets into the sea. Aerial views of Albion and other ships of the Far East Fleet. (ii) Albion is visited by a senior officer - C-in-C Far Eastern Fleet ? (iii) Wessex helicopter fires SS.11 wire-guided missiles at target hulks on a...

www.iwm.org.uk

Here is an audio recording from the IWM of Roland Roper describing his time in service. The excerpt is from the 15th reel of 24 from 10:45, with further reference to the missiles at 18:45, when being referred to as Nord AS.11s.

Interview with Roland Barry Roper

British apprentice at No 1 School of Technical Training, RAF at RAF Halton, GB, 1950-1954; served as aircraftman at RAF Helmswell in GB, 1954-1956; NCO served with 284 Sqdn, RAF at RAF Nicosia in Cyprus, 1956-1958; served with Engineering Wing, RAF Dishforth, GB, 1958-1959; served with C Flight...

www.iwm.org.uk

We got to Singapore, and they demanded that I fly off all four Whirlwinds. Now, I knew that they just wanted one Whirlwind with the maximum amount of flying hours, fitted with Nord because we only had a few that were fitted and that it was to be used for training purposes.
…
It was required with the maximum flying hours so they could do the training for firing the Nord

Borneo Boys: RAF Helicopter Pilots in Action Indonesia Confrontation, 1962–66 by Roger Annett may show a Whirlwind HAR.10 with what may possibly be SS.11 launch rails above the landing gear, which is attached below.

Not sure whether these would be related to the JEHU, but it could be possible that these were lessons learnt which had been put into action.

Any further information about this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TsrJoe]

Armed Whirlwind helicopter

Gentlemen! I'm looking for early 60th Westland Whirlwind helicopter armed with Hispano gun on fixed and flexible mounts

www.key.aero

 

[Kiltonge]

Borneo Boys: RAF Helicopter Pilots in Action Indonesia Confrontation, 1962–66 by Roger Annett may show a Whirlwind HAR.10 with what may possibly be SS.11 launch rails above the landing gear, which is attached below.

I do t have the book to hand right now but it does mention that the SS.11 installation was fully operational, not just for testing, and regular training was performed in Borneo firing the missiles against rock outcrops.

 

[iverson]

I do t have the book to hand right now but it does mention that the SS.11 installation was fully operational, not just for testing, and regular training was performed in Borneo firing the missiles against rock outcrops.

SS.11s, 2-in rockets, and Browning fixed machine guns were indeed operational armament, at least on the HU.5. Rockets and missiles were mounted underneath a flat platform braced to the landing gear and the fuselage. The guns were mounted on top of the platform. I have pictures of the guns both faired-in and unfaired.

The pictures below show the platform installed on an aircraft at a base in Sarawak and operating from carriers. I also have an old book somewhere that shows HUs that are covering the evacuation of Aden and armed with everything: SS.11s, 2-in rockets, fixed Brownings, and GPMGs in the cabin windows.

 

[iverson]

Next, a somewhat scarier armament fit, a WE.177 nuclear weapon on an HAS.3. As far as I can recall, this was intended as a feasability test for using the bomb as an ASW depth charge or for developing something similar specifically for ASW. But I don't really know at this point.

 

[Yellow Palace]

It seems that some Whirlwinds may have been armed with Nord SS.11s, according to this research thread on the WT Forums which I have taken part in:

British Helicopter Tech Tree - Discussion Topic

Might prove difficult to find images if only 3-4 Whirlwinds of a single squadron (225) were capable but there’s an IWM recording of an oral account of Whirlwind being equipped with SS.11 It’s in the 15th reel of 24, from 10:45 onwards: We got to Singapore, and they demanded that I fly off...

forum.warthunder.com

Yes, this is confirmed by the official RAF staff history of helicopter operations from 1987:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/units/air-historical-branch/regional-studies-post-coldwar-narratives/raf-helicopters-the-first-twenty-years-pt-2-by-wg-cdr-j-r-dowling/

Offensive Armament. In accordance with the policy to allow limited offensive armour to be fitted to SRT Helicopters (see Chapter 9), it was announced in January 1962 that the Nord SS-11 wire guided missile (optically guided from the cockpit) was to be available for optional fitting to the Mk 10 Whirlwind. Four pilots attended a course on the weapon in Paris in January.

Four aircraft were so fitted, ant it was noted as a 'specialty' spread amongst Whirlwind crews. It was, however, RAF policy that helicopters were purely for transport and should not be hazarded in an offensive role. Which lead to the use of Navy Wessex helicopters (under RAF command) as missile-firing platforms without troops on board being described as 'a highly embarrasing mistake'.

The RAF was, in general, concerned that allowing helicopters (of any service) to be armed, and to carry out operations other than in direct support of their own troops, would undermine the need for fighter/ground attack aircraft. By 1967, though, the C-in-C Air Support Command was stating that there was a need for a dedicated attack helicopter, even outlining requirements (250 knots, two hours airborne Fighter Air Controller at a radius of action of 75 nautical miles, able to fire SNEB rockets, 30 mm cannon, 7.62 light machine guns, grenades and ATGWs), and that if the RAF didn't propose it then the Army would do it for themselves.

The RAF continued to oppose the attack helicopter. And the Army did do it for themselves.

Next, a somewhat scarier armament fit, a WE.177 nuclear weapon on an HAS.3. As far as I can recall, this was intended as a feasability test for using the bomb as an ASW depth charge or for developing something similar specifically for ASW. But I don't really know at this point.

WE.177A was always in part a nuclear depth bomb; I'm not sure what platforms it was cleared for, but I expect this was part of trials for that role on the Wessex.

 

[TsrJoe]

Further to the above Wessex with WE.177A NDB image, Wasp, Wessex, Sea King & Lynx were deployed and operational with the weapon ... http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm#WE.177A

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Does anyone have any further information about the use of the Westland Wessex Commando Mk.1? These were utility versions of the HAS.1 which could carry missiles

 

[Scott Kenny]

Next, a somewhat scarier armament fit, a WE.177 nuclear weapon on an HAS.3. As far as I can recall, this was intended as a feasability test for using the bomb as an ASW depth charge or for developing something similar specifically for ASW. But I don't really know at this point.

Nuclear depth charges are good for dealing with a poorly localized sub. A 50kt boom will kill any sub within 1500y of detonation point, and a 250kt any sub within 3200yds (Inverse square rule sucks)

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Nuclear depth charges are good for dealing with a poorly localized sub. A 50kt boom will kill any sub within 1500y of detonation point, and a 250kt any sub within 3200yds (Inverse square rule sucks)

The only variant used as an NDB, WE.177A, had a 10kt yield at most, and a selectable 0.5kt yield for use in coastal waters.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The only variant used as an NDB, WE.177A, had a 10kt yield at most, and a selectable 0.5kt yield for use in coastal waters.

The 50 and 250 kt numbers were from US equipment (ASROC and SUBROC, respectively), I didn't know what the yield was for the WE.177.

 

[iverson]

I thought that I'd posted this image of a Whirlwind. But I guess that I missed it. It showsa the SS.11.

 

[iverson]

Images of Scouts armed with AS.11 are fairly common. I only have one showing a gun, a 7.62-mm GPMG fixed to the landing gear. I believe that they could also carry a similar gun on a pintle mount in the starboard rear door.

 

[iverson]

Here are an operational Scout with all three GPMGs installed and an exhibition example with four, boxy, faired rocket launchers ore missile launchers. Does anyone know what they might be?

 

[iverson]

Finally, Wasps with the larger AS.10 anti-ship missiles, the SS.11, and the WE.177. The latter highlights the Wasp's size and load capacity.

 

[iverson]

A page from Flight of a Westland Sioux AH.1 (Bell 47) armed with GPMGs in Belfast and a Scout armed, presumably experimentally, with a 7.62-mm GE Minigun, also from Flight (1968).

 

[TomS]

an exhibition example with four, boxy, faired rocket launchers ore missile launchers. Does anyone know what they might be?

We have that picture in another thread; Chris Gibson opines that it might be Hawkswing (a lighter and less capable Swingfire derivative?).

Post in thread 'Inswing / 'medium-range Swingfire' (Not Beeswing!)' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ange-swingfire-not-beeswing.12272/post-502549

 

[iverson]

We have that picture in another thread; Chris Gibson opines that it might be Hawkswing (a lighter and less capable Swingfire derivative?).

Post in thread 'Inswing / 'medium-range Swingfire' (Not Beeswing!)' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ange-swingfire-not-beeswing.12272/post-502549

I've never seen Hawkswing. But what about Vigilant? The size and container look about right.

 

[alertken]

YP's link at #13, the pics above, and CJG/Hood's 3 Project Tech Profiles give us as much as we may ever have on Br. armd helis. I doubt JEHU did more than GPMG: disbanded, their a/c passed 1/60 to RAF 225 Sqd, whose 4xWhirlwind HAR.10 in Kuching, 1964 included RAF's probably sole ATM/heli opnl. firing (1xSS.11). Hood's Adm'y & Heli Profile, P.16 has "both Wessex Commando variants {i.e.: RN HU.5, RAF HC.2} could carry 4xSS.11 or {he meant 2x} AS.12", but here is no pic of an armed HC.2. YP's link P.415 has 9/71: “RAF remained (unarmed for) SAR and SH (Support Heli} but with fittings for (GPMGs) in the Support Helis.” Look at CJG's Air Staff & Heli cover, Spraying Mantes (pl?) in action, and contemplate vulnerability. US Forces in SE Asia would lose >3,000 helis, 1965-72, some or more with a slick of grunts.

My devilling gives 1st. opnl. deployments: SS.11: Wessex Cdo.1 11/62, HU.5 12/3/65 (both/Albion), Wasp/Leander 1/67; FEAF Whirlwind HAR.10 12/63; AAC Scout/BAOR mid-'70; RN AS.12 after 6/68 on Wessex HAS.3, HU.5, Wasp, By then many others had many more.

 

[CJGibson]

I can't say I have ever seen a photo of a tooled-up HC2, which I've always found strange give the HU5 could bristle with weapons. Could it be that ridiculous RAF/Army restriction on who could do what?

I think the only armed HC2 I've ever seen is this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaM9WA15JNY


Chris

 

[alertken]

How's this for a fun Whiff?

Sir Richard Fairey was DG/Br.Air Commission,DC11/42 when RN sent over a Lend/Lease Requisition for 250xSikorsky R-5A/RN +36/RAF. That was canx. 12/44 by US priority access to them, but that alerted Sir Richard to these devices and he caused his firm to allow his co-founder, E.O.Tips, to invent Fairey Helis with a NOTAR scheme. Tips went offto liberated Belgium, but Sir Richard hired Weir/Cierva's
Ch.Eng. Dr.J.A.J.Bennett, who brought his C.41 (to be Fairey-Bennett FB-1) Gyrodyne (so on later to be Rotodyne).

Under Lend/Lease UK did obtain 43xRN/ASW, 9xRAF/AOP Sikorsky R-4B Gadfly/Hoverfly I, 27xR-6 wef7/45. Inexplicably Sir Richard did not (?try to) stop Sister Firm being assigned to General A/c/Hanworth.

Back in UK he enthused over rotors, so, mid-46 Sikorsky offered him an S-51 licence. HE DECLINED!! Licensing is for also-rans.

Empty Westland took an interest in rotors and approached Bell for a B.47 licence: too soon they said, so E. Mensforth tried Sikorsky...

(Much of this is in Prof,War Studies, KCL, Dr.M.Uttley's thesis Westland & Br. Heli. Indy.,45-60,Cass,01,inc. P110).

 

[alertken]

Tooled-up RAF helis: RAFHS Jrnl 25,2001:

"in the early 1990s we looked at whether we ought not to be providing all of our helicopters with offensive armament. This provoked a very sharp Army reaction in the corridors of Whitehall". P.61 AM Sir Tim Garden.
"RAF has always equipped its helicopters with GPMGs, certainly, within my own experience, going back as far as the Whirlwind and on through the Puma and Chinook. More recently we’ve been equipping our Chinooks with mini-guns" P.63 AVM Niven.

​

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Does anyone know what they might be?

It's possible they may be Vigilants.

 

[TsrJoe]

Whirlwind with SS.11, original photo by Dave Lawrence

 

[CJGibson]

Any one got a snap of a tooled-up Wesssx HC2?

Chris

 

[yasotay]

I wonder if the (now defunct) Conventional Forces Europe Treaty that defined any helicopter equipped with other than GPMG as an attack helicopter, and limited the numbers to each side quelled more efforts to arm utility class helicopters?

It certainly did in the US.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I wonder if the (now defunct) Conventional Forces Europe Treaty that defined any helicopter equipped with other than GPMG as an attack helicopter, and limited the numbers to each side quelled more efforts to arm utility class helicopters?

It certainly did in the US.

Probably.

Though in honesty 7.62mm is probably the best compromise at the time for weight of ammo versus impact. These days, I'd want an MG338 for double the range at only double the weight per round. When .50BMG is something like 8x the weight per round.

 

[TomS]

I wonder if the (now defunct) Conventional Forces Europe Treaty that defined any helicopter equipped with other than GPMG as an attack helicopter, and limited the numbers to each side quelled more efforts to arm utility class helicopters?

It certainly did in the US.

CFE limited attack helicopters, but the definition really only encompassed helicopters armed with guided missiles. Combat support helicopters with rockets, bombs, and guns were not limited.

Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty (CFE Treaty)

2009-2017.state.gov

(M) The term "attack helicopter" means a combat helicopter equipped to employ anti-armour, air-to-ground, or air-to-air guided weapons and equipped with an integrated fire control and aiming system for these weapons. The term "attack helicopter" comprises specialised attack helicopters and multi-purpose attack helicopters.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Whirlwind with SS.11, original photo by Dave Lawrence

That's quite interesting! Is there any more information about it? If yes, is it possible to quote it?

 

[yasotay]

@TomS - Thanks for the clarification. It does explain why the U.S. Army declined internal calls to use the UH-60 as a "missile truck," each carrying 16 X AGM-114, with a full reload carried as well. Used in conjunction with the OH-58D it would have made a good armor hunting team.

 

[TomS]

@TomS - Thanks for the clarification. It does explain why the U.S. Army declined internal calls to use the UH-60 as a "missile truck," each carrying 16 X AGM-114, with a full reload carried as well. Used in conjunction with the OH-58D it would have made a good armor hunting team.

Yep. The Kiowa is listed as a multipurpose attack helicopter, so counted under CFE. Black Hawk was not counted, but if any of them had been missile armed, I think all of them would have counted, which would have been very bad.

Though, arguably, if the Black Hawk "trucks" did not have their own laser designators, they would not count as having "integrated fire control."

 

[yasotay]

I suspect the finer angulars of that argument would have been muted. A carrot to dangle and the potential risk someone might querry the cost of AH-64 was quelled.

 

[Arjen]

Any one got a snap of a tooled-up Wesssx HC2?

Chris

Not sure if it's a HC.2, It isn't - exhaust is wrong - but here goes (image from JAWA '64):