Breguet 941 STOL and Related Projects

[TinWing]

Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

IIRC, the end result of all the "Model 188" demos and STOLPort studies was as follows:

Since the STOLPort was likely to be a "brownfield" site on the edge of town, it made sense to make the runway slightly longer and accept somewhat higher T/O and approach speeds. Importantly, this eased the engine-out control case to the point where the cross-shafted engines of the 941 were not needed. However, four engines were still required (for engine-out and flap blowing) together with robust controls (spoilers and a large double-hinged rudder).

This led to a joint US airline spec for a 48-seat STOL transport, and the DH Dash 7 was designed to it.

Ah yes, the STOLPort. Correct me if I'm wrong, but London City Airport is the only major, commercially successful STOLPort that comes to mind. I also have the impression that the BAe 146 was specifically designed for STOLPort operation, and the relative lack of sales success of the type stems in part from the failure of the "City Airport" concept as a well as the compromised operating economics of the STOL optimized airframe.

 

[fightingirish]

Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

"Model 188" pictures at at the SDASM Archives. Some also in colour.
Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=49487266%40N07&q=188++STOL&m=text

 

[alertken]

Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

TW: yes, 146 responded in 1970 in part to AA STOLPort, in part to discussions, HSAL/China, to follow up the Trident 2E order. Nixon had not yet "opened" China, so UK felt that Viscount/Trident could lead on to much. The CAAC Case was Lhasa, Tibet which they chose not to attempt on 2 Russian engines, but could not commercially sustain large Trident capacity. HSAL obtained Treasury Launch Aid in August,1973, but such STOL business as emerged was going to DHC-7 (HS Group-owned until May,1974); US sold 10 707-320B, other products presumably available; China lost interest in a UK paperplane. The new UK Govt. of October,1974 terminated its subsidy, so HSAL put it into trickle-scheme status. It was revived by that same Govt, now proud owner of BAe., on 10 July,1978 despite, as a brochure, having lost new BA's order on 2 March,1978 to 737-200ADV. PM Callaghan had chosen to reject offers by Boeing to buy chunks of (to be) 757 from new BAe. so he had to find something civil for his employees to do.

 

[Jemiba]

Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

According to Jean Cunys "Les Avions Breguet", the 946 was a double deck
airliner, a turboprop derivative of hte Br.124, but in the Aviation Magazine May 1961,
it's shown as a civil derivative of the Br.945 military transport. ???

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.944 150 seater STOL project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a 3-view drawing of the Bréguet Br.944. It is a "project", but it isn't "secret"......

The drawing comes from the 1st February 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[cluttonfred]

Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Question...shouldn't this thread be renamed "Breguet 941 STOL and related projects?"

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.944 150 seater STOL project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an artist's impression of the Bréguet Br.944 used to illustrate an editorial in French on the state of the national aviation industry. The Bréguet 944 was a project for a 150 seater STOL airliner; it featured six-abreast seating, large 7 metre three-blade propellors and wing-tip mounted auxiliary turbofan engines......

The drawing comes from the 15th January 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.946 250 seater STOL project and other Bréguet STOL projects......

According to Jean Cunys "Les Avions Breguet", the 946 was a double deck
airliner, a turboprop derivative of hte Br.124, but in the Aviation Magazine May 1961,
it's shown as a civil derivative of the Br.945 military transport. ???

Dear Jemiba, here is an article in French which confirms that the Bréguet Br.946 was a 250 seater STOL airliner project and that it shared the same double-decker fuselage as the Bréguet Br.124 250 seater airbus project......

This article in French comes from the 1st July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

The smaller Bréguet 94-type project you illustrated is familiar to me but I cannot find my references for the moment. It was the project which had two turboprop engines only (mounted in the inboard nacelles) but these engines drove four propellors and the outboard nacelles contained gearboxes only......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S & McDonnell-Douglas 188 STOL aircraft......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is part of an extensive article in French on how the second production Bréguet Br.941S was evaluated in service and tested in the USA as the McDonnell-Douglas MDC-188 from June 1968 onwards......

The article comes from the 1st January 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S & McDonnell-Douglas 188 STOL aircraft......

Dear Boys and Girls, the rest of the article from the 1st January 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Breguet 945 STOL Army Co-operation project......

According to Jean Cunys "Les Avions Breguet", the 946 was a double deck
airliner, a turboprop derivative of hte Br.124, but in the Aviation Magazine May 1961,
it's shown as a civil derivative of the Br.945 military transport. ???

Dear Jemiba, I believe the Bréguet Br.945 that you are looking for is in the second image down in this topic......

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3677.0/highlight,communaute.html

and is the smaller type which had two turboprop engines only (mounted in the inboard nacelles) driving all four propellors and the outboard nacelles contained gearboxes only......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Jemiba]

Indeed and according to the typical Breguet designation system, it would have been logical
to name the civil derivative of the Br.945 military transport as Br.946, which clearly shows
the same propulsion system.
But according to Jean Cunys "Les Avions Breguet" the Br.946 is the design shown below,
so it seems, this designation was used twice.

 

[Caravellarella]

Indeed and according to the typical Breguet designation system, it would have been logical
to name the civil derivative of the Br.945 military transport as Br.946, which clearly shows
the same propulsion system.
But according to Jean Cunys "Les Avions Breguet" the Br.946 is the design shown below,
so it seems, this designation was used twice.

Dear Jemiba, the drawing you've posted is actually of the 150 seater STOL airliner "project", the Bréguet Br.944......

See posts 1, 46 & 49 in this topic......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Jemiba]

Opps, indeed ! Sorry, my fault, had copied the wrong drawing.
And if I would have read more carefully, I would have answered my question by myself,
as Cuny mentions the civil derivative of the Br.945 and its planned designation as Br.946.
Should always read a chapter till the end !

 

[Caravellarella]

Opps, indeed ! Sorry, my fault, had copied the wrong drawing.
And if I would have read more carefully, I would have answered my question by myself,
as Cuny mentions the civil derivative of the Br.945 and its planned designation as Br.946.
Should always read a chapter till the end !

Don't worry Jemiba, to confuse matters I've just found a huge article on the Bréguet Br.942 airliner "project" from April 1960 which I'm trying to scan as I type

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL development & Br.942 STOL airliner project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an extensive article in French describing the ongoing development of the Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter and the plans for the Bréguet Br.942 STOL airliner "project"......

The Bréguet Br.942 "project" would have had a circular-section pressurised fuselage for passenger operations......

The article gives an full description of Bréguet's "intégral" concept. Although all four Turboméca Turmo III engines are interconnected, their turbines are not mechanically connected. Each Turmo III has a free turbine at the rear, and it is this free turbine that drives each shaft. The shaft is unconventionally at the back of each engine where it is best placed to transmit power to the reduction gearbox, and hence to in the interconnecting power shaft that links all four engines and to each individual engine. It is interesting to see how the propellor shaft is above each engine (I don't understand why this concept has not been adpted more widely). The interconnected "jockey" undercarriage is also very interesting to see......

The article comes from the 2nd April 1960 issue of Les Ailes......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[toura]

Another project !

 

[Grey Havoc]

Search and Rescue variant?

 

[toura]

HI grey HAVOC
i don't know. this is not specify

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 & Br.941S STOL airlifters......

Dear Boys and Girls; slightly off-topic, but judging by the number of colour covers and centre-spreads I've seen (in comparison to other French aircraft types), I'm sure Aviation Magazine International put a lot more effort into promoting the Bréguet Br.941. To no avail in the end......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[AeroFranz]

Nice color pictures, Terry. Thanks for scanning all the goodies in the past few weeks.

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter prototype......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the European (sales? demonstration?) tour made by the Bréguet Br.941 prototype in the Autumn of 1963......

The article comes from the 1st November 1963 issue of Aviation Magazine......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the ongoing service testing of one of the four production Bréguet Br.941S aircraft by the Armée de l'Air......

The article comes from the 1st November 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter prototype......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about future sales prospects after the European tour made by the Bréguet Br.941 prototype in the Autumn of 1963......

The article comes from the 15th November 1963 issue of Aviation Magazine......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about prospects for the Bréguet Br.941S......

The article comes from the 15th June 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a picture with a caption in French showing two of the three (then completed) Bréguet Br.941S production aircraft performing together at the 1967 Paris Salon......

The picture comes from the 15th June 1967 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

The two aircraft also appear briefly at 9'38" in this youtube film of the same airshow......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwLAU0QD6cI

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter prototype......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a short article in French an agreement for Short Brothers to join the Bréguet Br.941 programme and if required, to build the the Bréguet Br.941 under licence in the United Kingdom......

The article comes from the 15th February 1963 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Stargazer]

Gee... The Bréguet 941 seemed to have it all at the time, didn't it? McDonnell in the U.S., Short Brothers in the U.K. Plenty of civilian and military variants in the plans... With the C-142 and CL-84 also in the news, VTOL transports seemed to be just round the corner. The state of today's VTOL aviation is a far cry from all the great 1950s and 1960s depictions... :'(

 

[Grey Havoc]

Gee... The Bréguet 941 seemed to have it all at the time, didn't it? McDonnell in the U.S., Short Brothers in the U.K. Plenty of civilian and military variants in the plans... With the C-142 and CL-84 also in the news, VTOL transports seemed to be just round the corner. The state of today's VTOL aviation is a far cry from all the great 1950s and 1960s depictions... :'(

Politics once again won the day. Yet again Defeat was snatched from the jaws of Victory.

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a small piece in French announcing the first flight of the first of four production Breguet Br.941S aircraft on 19th April 1967......

The piece comes from the 1st May 1967 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

(Moderators; this topic doesn't make sense any more, I'm posting material about a "production" aircraft in a topic about "unbuilt projects")

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a small picture with a caption in French showing one of the four production Bréguet Br.941S aircraft. The picture was used to illustrate a larger article about trends in air transport; the caption proclaims that the Bréguet Br.941S is "the only true STOL airlifter/transport in the world"......

The picture comes from the 15th May 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter prototype......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a brief article in French about aircraft performance during the US tour made by the Bréguet Br.941 prototype in June 1964......

The article comes from the 1st May 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a drawing with a description in French of the production Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter. The actual Br.941S differed slightly as built......

The picture comes from the 1st February 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a better drawing of the production Bréguet Br.941S STOL airlifter. Note how the chord of the wing leading-edge is increased outboard of the inner engine nacelles......

I do not know the origin of this drawing......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Re: Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter prototype......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a drawing of the prototype Bréguet Br.941 STOL airlifter which first flew on 1st June 1961......

I do not know the origin of this drawing......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Jemiba]

Examples for different cargo layouts for the Br.941:
(from Aviation Magazine May 1961)

 

[Petrus]

Examples for different cargo layouts for the Br.941:
(from Aviation Magazine May 1961)

Very interesting. Btw do you have any idea why in the paratroops variant there are no seats for the paras in the middle of the cabin?

Piotr

 

[Jemiba]

I think, because the rear ramp would have been used as jump platform and for moving all
paratroops to the rear as quick as possible, the middle had to be kept clear. The fuselage
wasn't actually very wide, as you can see here:
(from Aviation Magazine May 1961)

 

[Rickshaw]

I think, because the rear ramp would have been used as jump platform and for moving all
paratroops to the rear as quick as possible, the middle had to be kept clear. The fuselage
wasn't actually very wide, as you can see here:
(from Aviation Magazine May 1961)

Most transport aircraft used for paratrooping had a significantly lower passenger density than the same aircraft used for normal transport duties. The centre was kept clear to allow both the paratroopers more room for their personnel equipment and kitbags and often supply pallets which were dropped at the same time as the paratroopers.

 

[Triton]

McDonnell 188

Source:
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5487426&size=lg
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5019052/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1459776@N25/pool/49487266@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4589913427/sizes/o/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4589913285/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4589913251/sizes/o/in/photostream/