Breguet 1180 and other projects for French Minerve Program

Deltafan

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Hi,

as possible continuation of these topics:

(I read the article. I changed the title of the topic. As said before, I cannot see my archives for a few weeks. Then I cannot compare with all the links, but I added the link concerning the Mirage F1)


I open this topic on an article from the French magazine Le Fana de l'Aviation for the month of April (free Facebook page of the magazine):

The secrets of French nuclear power

In the mid-1960s, French aircraft manufacturers secretly studied nuclear bombers to replace the Mirage IV, including the Breguet 1180.
The Breguet Minerve was much larger than the Mirage IV, which it was to succeed.


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Great Scott ! It's Christmas in April. I remember the Breguet 1180 from Jean Cuny book: look like a giant Jaguar, more exactly a giant Breguet 121.

"Minerve" had some wild ideas and concepts and designs, TBH.

As said the Gods of Olympus "Elle minerve celle là !"
 
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By the same author Claude Carlier Mirage IV of the F.A.S.
 

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A) I didn't noticed the Jaguar in the background. Well done ! There was indeed a (rather logical) link between Breguet projects 1180 and 1210 (the later kind of lost its "zero" as "121", then won ECAT, and then became the Jaguar)

B) So Minerve was larger than a Mirage IVA.

Makes some sense: it was kind of return to the 1959 Mirage IVB. Canned because of foreign engines, its cost and Force de frappe emergency.

With the Mirage IVA into service by October 1964 with its well known range limits, it make some sense the temptation of a Mirage IVB (= a French B-58, really) came back.

With a notable difference however: a standoff missile.

Which in turn led to the ASMP a decade later, for the ACF and Mirage IVP, Mirage 2000D [ and Rafale nowadays.]

What really happened however was that solid-fuel IRBMs (plateau d'Albion) and SLBMs (M1 to M50 family) were the "real deal". This had been acknowledged as early as 1958 - but France getting the technology was a long and arduous road, linked to NATO MLF Polaris at some point - but De Gaulle staunchly refused any French Nassau agreement. JFK's europeanists Deans (Archeson and Rusk) tried hard, but it went nowhere.

Mirage IVA, bombers, were seen only as a stopgap for a Force de frappe early IOC by 1964.
SLBMs into nuclear subs were the ultimate objective: reached in March 1972 with the Redoutable first patrol.

Nowadays the FDF is first and foremost the boomers - with some ASMP-A for better flexibility, on top of that. Everything else (tac nukes on tac missiles and aircraft, Plateau d'Albion) has been scrapped in the 1990's.

(in passing, this week France has
a) made a fully successfull test of an upgraded ASMP-A from a Rafale
and
b) put at sea three out of four boomers: something unseen since 1988.

You have a message, Vlad Putin... Note: this is not a pathetic attempt at dragging this thread into present day events. Just noted these two facts in passing.)
 
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After reading of the article.

We can see too as drawings :

-the 2 views shown above by Manuducati (by Breguet)
-the 3 views shown above by fightingirish (by Breguet)
-the ballistic missile Matra 600 (by Breguet)
-the Breguet 1191 strategic bomber, derived from the Breguet 1150 Atlantic (by Jean Cuny)
-3 views of the Dassault Minerve V (by Dassault)
-3 views of the Dassault Minerve VI B (by Dassault)
-a Sud-Aviation cruise missile on the Mirage IV (by Dassault)
-3 views of the Nord Minerve (by Alain Ratinaud, our SPF forumer alanqua)

Also mentioned :

Airplanes :

-Sud Aviation derivative of Concorde
-Breguet 1190
-Dassault-Sud Aviation Super Caravelle
-Dassault Super Mirage
-Dassault Mirage IVC22

Missiles :

-Sud Aviation Robot
-Sud Aviation Casseur
-E6B (Dassault ? Sud-Aviation ? Other ?)
-Matra 621
-Dassault Gamma
 
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There is also this model, said to be linked to the Minerve program, but I have no more information about it. Could be a what-if from a modeller, a quick reverse search brings nothing.
 

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There is also this model, said to be linked to the Minerve program, but I have no more information about it. Could be a what-if from a modeller, a quick reverse search brings nothing.
It's in three links that I give above (FSP 2, Mirage F1, SPF topic on FSP 2), and as 3 views drawing in the article of le Fana.

Today we are more on Dassault Minerve VI (the book on the Mirage F1 and the last answer of Mr. Carbonel in the French Secret Projects 2 topic) and even VI B in the article of le Fana. The Dassault Minerve V is a "big Mirage IV" delta project.
 
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After reading of the article.

We can see too as drawings :

-the 2 views shown above by Manuducati (by Breguet)
-the 3 views shown above by fightingirish (by Breguet)
-the ballistic missile Matra 600 (by Breguet)
-the Breguet 1191 strategic bomber, derived from the Breguet 1150 Atlantic (by Jean Cuny)
-3 views of the Dassault Minerve V (by Dassault)
-3 views of the Dassault Minerve VI B (by Dassault)
-a Sud-Aviation cruise missile on the Mirage IV (by Dassault)
-3 views of the Nord Minerve (by Alain Ratinaud, our SPF forumer alanqua)

Also mentioned :

Airplanes :

-Sud Aviation derivative of Concorde
-Breguet 1190
-Dassault-Sud Aviation Super Caravelle
-Dassault Super Mirage
-Dassault Mirage IVC22

Missiles :

-Sud Aviation Robot
-Sud Aviation Casseur
-E6B (Dassault ? Sud-Aviation ? Other ?)
-Matra 621
-Dassault Gamma

Casseur : "breaker" as in: somebody who breaks something (thank you, Captain Archibald Ovious LOL) so more like "destroyer", in passing. And with nukes, it was sure to destroys a lot of things.
 
Projet "Minerve" in "le Fana de L 'Aviation".
 

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Is this also Nord Minerve?
 

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I feel the span and the length of this drawing and this table are strange.
If the span is 19.5m, the length excluding nose pitot tube is 41m(not 34m).
I want to know alanqua-san's opinion.
 

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@blackkite I wonder if the 3-view and the dimensions table refer to the same design?
French Secret Projects 2 - Cold War Bombers, Patrol and Assault Aircraft by Jean-Christophe Carbonel, Crecy 2017, presents the same dimensions for the Nord Minerve bomber, but the numbers are accompanied by drawings of a canard delta. Canards are absent in the Fana 3-view you posted. Carbonel writes the Nord Minerve bomber's engines 'were to be probably either TF106s or Olympus 593/3s (curiously they were not turbo-ramjets although this was a specialty of Nord)'.
The article from the 2022 Fana by Claude Carlier says the Nord bomber would have had statoréacteurs - ramjets.
 
If this table shows canard delta design, also strange, especially relation between span and length.
TF106 and Olympus 593 are perfectly different size.

TF106A2
Dry thrust: 4200kg
A/B thrust: 7500kg (TF106A3, 500kg more thrust)
SFC: 0.66/2.5
Bypass ratio: 1.3
Mass: 1780kg

Olympus 593 Mk 610​
General characteristics
Type:
turbojet
Length: 4.039 m (13 ft 3.0 in)
Diameter: 1.212 m (3 ft 11.7 in)
Dry weight: 3,175 kg (7,000 lb)
Performance
Maximum thrust:
wet: 169.2 kN (38,000 lbf) dry: 139.4 kN (31,300 lbf)
 
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I feel the span and the length of this drawing and this table are strange.
If the span is 19.5m, the length excluding nose pitot tube is 41m(not 34m).
I want to know alanqua-san's opinion.
@blackkite I wonder if the 3-view and the dimensions table refer to the same design?
French Secret Projects 2 - Cold War Bombers, Patrol and Assault Aircraft by Jean-Christophe Carbonel, Crecy 2017, presents the same dimensions for the Nord Minerve bomber, but the numbers are accompanied by drawings of a canard delta. Canards are absent in the Fana 3-view you posted. Carbonel writes the Nord Minerve bomber's engines 'were to be probably either TF106s or Olympus 593/3s (curiously they were not turbo-ramjets although this was a specialty of Nord)'.
The article from the 2022 Fana by Claude Carlier says the Nord bomber would have had statoréacteurs - ramjets.
If this table shows canard delta design, also strange, especially relation between span and length.
TF106 and Olympus 593 are perfectly different size.

TF106A2
Dry thrust: 4200kg
A/B thrust: 7500kg (TF106A3, 500kg more thrust)
SFC: 0.66/2.5
Bypass ratio: 1.3
Mass: 1780kg

Olympus 593 Mk 610​
General characteristics
Type:
turbojet
Length: 4.039 m (13 ft 3.0 in)
Diameter: 1.212 m (3 ft 11.7 in)
Dry weight: 3,175 kg (7,000 lb)
Performance
Maximum thrust:
wet: 169.2 kN (38,000 lbf) dry: 139.4 kN (31,300 lbf)
In FSP2, the three drawings showing the Nord Minerve delta canard on page 84 correspond
to the plane shown on the cover and the beginning of the text indicates either a TF-106 or an Olympus 593/3 (and no turbo-ramjet).
51uukqz6del-_sy400_-jpg.564791

But at the end of the text there is talk of a brochure in July 1962 and another for October 9, 1962, with "supplements" for the version with Olympus 593/3. This means that there were at least three versions and we can imagine that these versions were therefore either with TF-106 or with 593/3.

In the Fana of April 2022, the insert relating to Minerve indicates that there are now (new archives could be found between FSP2 [2016] and the Fana article [2022]) “several projects” which use turbo-ramjets. This does not mean that there are no projects without turbo-ramjets (so, with TF-106 or 593/3).

So there are maybe drawings that must exist of other versions of the Nord Minerve and not just the device shown in FSP2 and the one shown in Fana.

On the other hand, yes, the characteristics table shows the same dimensions for the two devices shown. However, if we measure the FSP2 plane, for a wingspan of 19.5 meters, the length is more than 34 meters (around 39 meters). If we measure the Fana plane, for a wingspan of 19.5 meters, the plane is also more than 34 meters (approximately 40.7 meters).

So, in my opinion, either there is a typographical error (and I remember there were many in FSP1), or these are characteristics of a different version than the two shown.
 
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When France was thinking of developing an aero-ballistic missile with nuclear capability...

On March 19, Russia announced that its air force had just targeted a Ukrainian military depot with a hypersonic weapon, in this case a Kh-47М2 Kinjal aeroballistic missile, fired from a MiG-31K fighter jet. Derived from the SS-26 [or Iskander-M] surface-to-surface missile, this craft adopts a ballistic trajectory [or quasi-ballistic trajectory if its apogee is in the atmosphere] before beginning a descent towards its target, while having a manoeuvring capability as it approaches the target.

The Kh-47M2 Kinjal is not the only hypersonic aeroballistic missile [i.e. flying at a speed greater than Mach 5] to have been developed... China is developing the CH-AS-X-13, which is expected to arm the H-6N bomber.

However, the concept of an "air-launched ballistic missile" [ALBM] is not new. In the United States, in the 1950s, Lockheed developed the High Virgo [or WS-199C] missile, which was to be used by the Convair B-58 Hustler supersonic bomber. But he did not give full satisfaction. But it paved the way for the GAM-87 Skybolt aeroballistic missile, which was to be launched by the U.S. Air Force's B-52 Stratofortress and the Royal Air Force's Avro Vulcan bombers. But again, this project was cancelled in 1962, due to its uncontrolled costs and technical difficulties... In addition, it seemed less relevant than surface-to-surface and sea-to-surface strategic ballistic missiles.

However, at the same time, France was considering whether to equip its Strategic Air Forces [SAF] with nuclear-capable aeroballistic missiles. While the Mirage IVA, carrying the AN-11 nuclear bomb, was preparing to enter service after rapid development, the General Staffs were quick to talk about its replacement, in order to anticipate the progress of air defenses and electronic warfare. These advances were likely to make the bombers too vulnerable.

Hence the launch, in 1962, of the "Minerve" program, which is the subject of a complete dossier in the last issue of the Fana de l'Aviation. The central idea was that the French strike force should be equipped with an air-to-surface ballistic missile, carried by a new bomber that could launch it from a safe distance.

Three manufacturers were called upon, including Sud-Aviation, with a derivative of the Concorde capable of carrying the "Robot" missile, itself the result of studies relating to the "Casseur" surface-to-surface ballistic device [abandoned in 1959, editor's note], Dassault Aviation, with the Mirage IVB, much larger than the Mirage IVA, and Bréguet.

He worked on the Br.1180 supersonic twin-engine bomber... as well as a derivative version of what would become the Br.1150 Atlantic [which was quickly discarded]. What these two solutions had in common was the Matra 600 aeroballistic missile.

With a range of more than 4000 km, powered by two Bristol BS593/3 engines and operated by a pilot, a navigator and a radar operator, the Br.1180 had to have a mass of more than 60 tons, for a length of 33 meters and to have the capacity to be refueled in flight [and even serve as a refueler]. It was planned to place the Matra 600 in a cargo hold.

As for this one, with a length of 9 meters, a diameter of 1.05 meters and a mass of 8400 kg, it had to be guided by an inertial measurement unit and a digital computer. Powered by a turbojet(??) engine, its maximum range was about 2000 km depending on the drop altitude.

The Matra 600 "can be dropped at Mach 2 at an altitude of 18,000 meters, with a maximum range of 1,900 km. Low-altitude launch can be carried out at Mach 1.2, with a range of between 1000 and 1200 km. The planned nuclear warhead has a power of about one megaton [one million tons of TNT, editor's note]. A two-stage version to improve the range is envisaged for low-altitude launching," summarizes Claude Carlier, in the columns of the Fana de l'Aviation.

In the end, this project went no further than the drawing board... since it was decided to cancel it in 1963. One of the reasons was the use of foreign-designed engines, which was not in line with the criteria for national independence at the time. In addition, it was considered both too ambitious and too costly.

It was not until the 1980s that the SAF was equipped with a nuclear-capable missile – but a cruise missile – with the ASMP [Medium Range Air Surface].

Find out more: "French Secret Projects" Volume II – Jean-Christophe Carbonel
 

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