Brazilian Never-were warship proposals 1920-1940

One more detail and one more dreadnought:

  • The "Brazilian Original Design" (Riachuelo proposal, 8x381) had 18x6" anti-ship and 12 4"/50 anti-ship and anti-aircraft capabilities.
Revista_Maritima_Brasileira_Ao1914_No72_-_Dreadnoughts_6._Dreadnought_no_Brazil_-_p467.jpg

  • There is a "Rio de Janeiro proposal" with 18x305mm:
unknown.png
Sorry, I have no scheme. Maybe a Progetto 1908 plus one turret?
Source: Линкоры второстепенных морских держав" Page 13

Regards
 
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6x3 12" is the most likely layout and that Deuncourt reminds me of Agincourt...
There was a double pyramidal proposal by Armstrong for Brazil of Argentina eg 3 turrets forward 3 aft but those were only twins. Let me search for it.
Or you could got a slightly enlarged Fuso or Ise
 
Tzoli, let me go back to a 1915 Brazilian Protected Destroyer proposal:
Nd7vsBA.jpg

3 (3x1) 152 mm
4 (4x1, 2/2) 76 mm (double purpose)
4 (2x2, 2/2) 533 mm
50,8 mm belt
32 knots
1375-1625 tons
With this proposal, a destroyer was sought that would exceed the 1912 argentine Córdoba* class and the 1914 chilean Lynch** class.

* 1000-1300 tons, 34 knots, 4 (4x1) 102/50 mm & 4 (4x1, 2/2) 533 tt.
** 1400-1800 tons, 31,5 ks, 6 (6x1, 3/3) 102/45 mm & 6 (3x2) 457 tt.
 
It's more like a small cruiser than a destroyer! Only the hull shape reminds me of a destroyer!
 
There were lots of projects in that era which straddled the line between destroyer and small cruiser. The original concept for Jackie Fisher's HMS Swift is an example. Her original raison d'être was an experimental design to produce an ocean-going torpedo craft that could perform both fleet cruiser and destroyer duties. It didn't work, but that was the desideratum that Fisher's 1904 Committee on Designs came up with.
 
if those are dimensions data on the top right corner, then it's size is very close to the WW2 Javarí / Havant class
 
  • There is a "Rio de Janeiro proposal" with 18x305mm:
unknown.png
"A US naval attaché visiting the Armstrong factory in November 1912 was told that the turrets for Italy (for Dante Alighieri) had been completed, and that work was proceeding on similar triple turrets for Brazil (but no Brazilian ship was ever armed with these turrets)."
Naval Weapons of WWI, N. Friedman, 2011.

Tzoli, let me go back to a 1915 Brazilian Protected Destroyer proposal:
Nd7vsBA.jpg

3 (3x1) 152 mm
4 (4x1, 2/2) 76 mm (double purpose)
4 (2x2, 2/2) 533 mm
50,8 mm belt
32 knots
1375-1625 tons
With this proposal, a destroyer was sought that would exceed the 1912 argentine Córdoba* class and the 1914 chilean Lynch** class.

* 1000-1300 tons, 34 knots, 4 (4x1) 102/50 mm & 4 (4x1, 2/2) 533 tt.
** 1400-1800 tons, 31,5 ks, 6 (6x1, 3/3) 102/45 mm & 6 (3x2) 457 tt.
Sherman Tank, very good observation.
I'm working on an article about this project to be published on the "Reporte de Batalla" blog (spanish) and the WoWs forums (english), between today and tomorrow, so I hope to bring more light to this issue.
 
I seriously doubt there will be any meaningful comments on the Wows forums apart from "cool" and what level it will be good at...

But indeed from my collected database I could not find any capital ship designs for Brazil with triple turrets. Which of course does not mean it wasn't offered.
 
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This 18x 12" armed battleship might had connection to the offer to the Japanese by Armstrong in 1907:

Armstrong Design 503: (On the paper the date: 1907 January 24.)
Dimensions: 170,69m(pp) x 25,91m x 8,23m (13,41m hull depth)
Displacement: 23.500tons (Standard)
Engines: 25.000shp Steam Turbines (originally 23.000shp stated)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
6x3 305mm Cannons (No calibre stated)
24x1 102mm Guns,
4x Torpedo tubes.
 
There were plans to built a minelayer submarine from the Brazilian navy around 1934. For instance the Kon.Mij. De Schelde, Vlissingen, Netherlands was interested. I have seen a blueprint and some details year ago. Should be somewhere between my notes
 
Some drawings of the Brazilian submarine. The Kon. Mij. De Schelde offered her own design. I'm searching in my notes for more details, but can't find them at the moment
 

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There were plans to built a minelayer submarine from the Brazilian navy around 1934. For instance the Kon.Mij. De Schelde, Vlissingen, Netherlands was interested. I have seen a blueprint and some details year ago. Should be somewhere between my notes
There were plans in the 1930's to buy a mix of attack and minelaying submarines, the number of which I don't recall right now(I think it was 10 and 5 respectively, but might be mistaken). Brazil ended up buying 3 Adua-class submarines in the late 30's, which were named Tupy, Tamoyo and Timbira, names that had been previously used for 3 torpedo cruisers bought in the 1890's.
 
Add Vickers Design Nº 669

Designer: Vickers (Thursfield)
Date: 27 May 1913
Displacement: 1200 tons
Size: 315ft × 28ft × 18ft × 8¼ft (96x8,5m)
Machine: 5 boilers, 2 shaft, turbines.
Range (economical speed and oil fuel): 1750nm.
Power: Illegible*
Speed: Illegible**
Guns: 2 x 4in, 4 x 6-pounders
Torps: 6 x 21in (8 torpedoes).
Feature: 4ft 6in Barr & Stroud rangefinder.
Price: £220,000.
BKnVlkc.png


It seems to mirror the functions of the Argentine "San Luis/Santiago del Estero" destroyer (3x102 + 8x533), later requisitioned as G101 by Germany.

Source: "British Destroyers. From Earliest Days..." - Friedman N - 2009.

*25.000 hp?
**32 ks?
 
Add to the list:

1927: Battleships with 15kt and 16".
1928: Battleships with 20kt and 16".

WimXwpF.png
 
Any designation? Data? Offering shipyard or just Admirals dream?
 
Add Vickers Design Nº 669

Designer: Vickers (Thursfield)
Date: 27 May 1913
Displacement: 1200 tons
Size: 315ft × 28ft × 18ft × 8¼ft (96x8,5m)
Machine: 5 boilers, 2 shaft, turbines.
Range (economical speed and oil fuel): 1750nm.
Power: Illegible*
Speed: Illegible**
Guns: 2 x 4in, 4 x 6-pounders
Torps: 6 x 21in (8 torpedoes).
Feature: 4ft 6in Barr & Stroud rangefinder.
Price: £220,000.
BKnVlkc.png


It seems to mirror the functions of the Argentine "San Luis/Santiago del Estero" destroyer (3x102 + 8x533), later requisitioned as G101 by Germany.

Source: "British Destroyers. From Earliest Days..." - Friedman N - 2009.

*25.000 hp?
**32 ks?
Which length? pp,wl,oa? What displacement? Empty,Normal,Full?
 
Any designation? Data? Offering shipyard or just Admirals dream?
Sources on spoiler.
For more data we need a better research on brazilian soil.

Add Vickers Design Nº 669

Designer: Vickers (Thursfield)
Date: 27 May 1913
Displacement: 1200 tons
Size: 315ft × 28ft × 18ft × 8¼ft (96x8,5m)
Machine: 5 boilers, 2 shaft, turbines.
Range (economical speed and oil fuel): 1750nm.
Power: Illegible*
Speed: Illegible**
Guns: 2 x 4in, 4 x 6-pounders
Torps: 6 x 21in (8 torpedoes).
Feature: 4ft 6in Barr & Stroud rangefinder.
Price: £220,000.
BKnVlkc.png


It seems to mirror the functions of the Argentine "San Luis/Santiago del Estero" destroyer (3x102 + 8x533), later requisitioned as G101 by Germany.

Source: "British Destroyers. From Earliest Days..." - Friedman N - 2009.

*25.000 hp?
**32 ks?
Which length? pp,wl,oa? What displacement? Empty,Normal,Full?
Length: No idea.
Displacement: Normal?

Full quote from "British Destroyers. From Earliest Days to the Second World War":
"By 1913, Brazil, which had touched off the building race, was apparently again interested in new destroyers, presumably as part of the same programme that envisaged further battleship construction (4)".
"(4) As an indication of what was envisaged, the Vickers (Thursfield) notebook includes Design 669 for Brazil, dated 27 May 1913: 1200 tons (315ft × 28ft × 18ft × 8¼ft), with five boilers and two-shaft turbines (unfortunately power and speed are illegible), armed with two 4in, four 6-pounders, and six 21in torpedo tubes (eight torpedoes). Radius of action at economical speed (oil fuel only) was 1750nm. An interesting feature was a 4ft 6in Barr & Stroud rangefinder. The quoted price was £220,000.
War Orders for Commodore (T), July 1914, in Backhouse Papers".
 
In the archive of the Kon.Mij. De Schelde, Vlissingen, Netherlands are a number of drawings preserved dealing with the famous Dutch 3-cylinder class submarines. In the Netherlands is since the 1930s the design office N.V. Nederlandsche Vereenigde Scheepsbouw Bureaux (Nevesbu) active, originally established by the major Dutch shipyards and which office designed since then warships and merchant ships. Her active is not open for the public. Lucky enough some drawings are available in the first mentioned archive and more important also digitized, The design 2086 dates from 2 September 1952 of a submarine with a standard displacement of 1.000 tons and apparently a proposal fort he Brazilian navy but never realized. The drawing can be downloaded on:
https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/3C5C082EA5084B4DBAAE04FCCB6A7443

For other designs see this thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...s-unbuilt-3-and-4-pressure-hull-designs.1857/
 

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In the Brazilian Naval Program of 1932, the purchase of 9 Destroyers with the following characteristics was determined:
  • 1,600t.
  • 4 tubes of 120mm.
  • 9 torpedo tubes.
My first idea about it: Bra 4x120 9x533.jpg

Details can be found at: "Arquivo Souza Costa, CPDOC-FGV, pasta indexada como SC1934.03.15" in the Brazilian Archives.
 
I think from this naval programme came the Javary / Havant class destroyers which has quite similar characteristics:
1350/1860tons, 4x1 4,7" guns, 2x4 21" TT
 
I think from this naval programme came the Javary / Havant class destroyers which has quite similar characteristics:
1350/1860tons, 4x1 4,7" guns, 2x4 21" TT
Yes, it is an alternative.
Being the year 1932 I assumed that the Brazilians were based on the Argentine Cervantes and Mendoza classes (and why not Chilean Serrano), all with triple launchers.
Years later, the American option (finally translated into the M class, similar to the Mahan) and the German option (externally manufactured destroyers in a quantity of 3 and local in a quantity of 3) gained strength, with the British option being latent (supposedly enhanced by the Argentine and Chilean boycott of the export of American destroyers in Latin America, especially Brazil)
 
Details can be found at: "Arquivo Souza Costa, CPDOC-FGV, pasta indexada como SC1934.03.15" in the Brazilian Archives.
Just mentioning that putting that search key into Google will point you to a 2020 PhD Thesis on Brazilian military shipbuilding, named "Construir navios é preciso, desistir não é preciso: a construção naval militar brasileira nas décadas de 1930 e 1940" ('Building ships is needed, giving up isn't needed: Brazilian military shipbuilding in the 1930s and 1940s'), which should give you plenty of information on that topic, as it is a 429-page thesis; it will take a while to fully digest the information. As for the folder itself, one will have to run through some hooops with the National Archive to get to it.
 
Details can be found at: "Arquivo Souza Costa, CPDOC-FGV, pasta indexada como SC1934.03.15" in the Brazilian Archives.
Just mentioning that putting that search key into Google will point you to a 2020 PhD Thesis on Brazilian military shipbuilding, named "Construir navios é preciso, desistir não é preciso: a construção naval militar brasileira nas décadas de 1930 e 1940" ('Building ships is needed, giving up isn't needed: Brazilian military shipbuilding in the 1930s and 1940s'), which should give you plenty of information on that topic, as it is a 429-page thesis; it will take a while to fully digest the information. As for the folder itself, one will have to run through some hooops with the National Archive to get to it.
Read the relevant pages today. BTW, the "pasta indexada como SC1934.03.15" is a folder with many(some 600) documents of the Brazilian Finance Ministry regarding how to fund those ships.

Some more details on the 1932 Plan:

- Cruisers, as stated before, were supposed to displace 8,500 T and have 6 *-inch guns;

- Destroyers were as stated by COLDOWN;

- 4 of the submarines were to displace around 900 T and have 8 torpedo tubes and a 4-inch gun, while the other 2 were to displace up to 800 T and carry 42 mines(as well as lighter armament than the other submarines);

- Brazil negotiated the purchase of ships with Great Britain, the USA and Italy, mainly;

- The Italians wanted to receive money(pounds sterling, I assume), instead of doing something like the Aski Mark scheme the Germans did when dealing with Brazil, so Brazil only bought submarines from them;

- US negotiations started with Brazil trying to get Omaha-class cruisers(the thesis says 'up to 10 cruisers of the class', so Brazil was going for the whole class - wonder how they would crew them). That plan didn't go through, for many reasons, including the fact the US Navy decided to keep them in service. Roosevelt offered, as compensation, the lease of 6 Wickes/Clemson-class DDs; when that plan became public, it faced opposition from the US Congress, Argentina and Britain;

- As a result(as already widely-known), Brazil bought the plans for Mahan-class DDs, to be built in Brazil, and 6 British H-class DDs. Many in the Brazilian Navy thought building a simpler design(like the H-class being built in the UK) would be more suited for construction in Brazil, something that(with the acquisition of the Brazilian destroyers by the British) would lead to the A-class DDs that would later be built.
 
Brazil bought the plans for Mahan-class DDs
Technically, they bought the plans for USS Cassin (DD-372), the only difference was that Mahan's turbines were built by Westinghouse, and Cassin (and thus the Brazilian ships) had General Electric turbines
 
Let's see:
According to my knowledge these were the Brazilian never-were warships:
Indigenous designs:
Submarines:

S-NAC-1 - Hunter-Killer Submarine design from 1995
S-NAC-2 - Nuclear Submarine Design from 1995
Destroyers:
Design 1915

Export designs for Brazil:
Destroyers:

Armstrong Design 533 from 1907
Vickers Design 669 from 1913
Thornycroft-White-Yarrow 1888 from 1954
Thornycroft Design for Brazil from 1954

Cruisers:
Scout:

Armstrong Design 650 from 1910
Light:
Vickers Design 1010 from 1923
Vickers Design 1013 from 1923
Armoured:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902
Armstrong Design 405 from 1903
Armstrong Design 406 from 1903
Vickers Design 172 from 1906
Vickers Design 172A from 1906
Armstrong Design 532 from 1907
Armstrong Design 575 from 1907
Heavy:
Vickers Design 835 from 1923
Vickers Design 1045 from 1933

Heavy Ships:
Monitors:
Riverine:

Armstrong Design 544 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 547 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 554 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 555 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design A for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design B for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design C for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design D for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design E for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design 712 from 1911
Armstrong Design 713 from 1911
Armstrong Design 723 from 1911
Coastal Battleship:
Armstrong Design 531 from 1907
Battleships:
Armstrong Design 364 from 1902
Vickers Design 188 from 1906
Vickers Design 188A from 1906
Armstrong Design 405 from 1906
Armstrong Design 406 from 1906
Armstrong Design for Brazil from 1907
Armstrong Design 532 from 1907
Armstrong Design 640 from 1910
Armstrong Design 641 from 1910
Armstrong Design 643 from 1910
Armstrong Design 644 from 1910
Armstrong Design 645 from 1910
Armstrong Design 653 from 1910
Armstrong Design for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design 682 from 1911
Armstrong Design 683 from 1911
Armstrong Design 684 from 1911
Armstrong Design 684A from 1911
Armstrong Design 685 from 1911
Armstrong Design 685A from 1911
Armstrong Design 686 from 1911
Armstrong Design 687 from 1911
Armstrong Design 688 from 1911
Armstrong Design 689 from 1911
Armstrong Design 690 from 1911
Armstrong Design 690A from 1911
(Note HMS Agincourt ex TCG Sultan Osman I ex ARB Rio de Janeiro was Design 690B )
Armstrong Design 781 from 1913
Armstrong Design 782 from 1913
Armstrong Design 783 from 1913
Armstrong Design 784 from 1913
Armstrong Design 785 from 1913
Armstrong Design 786 from 1913
Armstrong Design 787 from 1913
Armstrong Design 788 from 1913
Vickers Design 670 from 1913
Vickers Design 671 from 1913
Vickers Design 672 from 1913
Vickers Design 673 from 1913
Vickers Design 688 from 1913
Vickers Design 689 from 1913

And the Riachuelo class designs (4 variants to my knowledge)

As usual ask for design and I provide more data
I definitely would like to see you make Brazilian warships like you did with the Argentina warships that never were.
 
It is interesting to know that before Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro which then became Sultan Osman I and then HMS Agincourt, Armstrong offered to modify the design to mount 7x1 15"/45 (Note /45 calibre and not the /42 of the RN finally adopted.) in place of the twin 12" turrets to increase it's firepower! the /45 guns would surely be of Vickers origin.
I want to see that on Deviantart, that looks too good to see. A true definition of a meme ship worthy for WoWs.
 
Not a 1920-1940 but an interesting idea:

1909 Braziliam "fourth" dreadnought design and preliminary design of the "Riachuelo".

451054047_971307048251061_5033065122364842724_n.jpg


General characteristics:
- 14 (2x3+4x2) 305mm/45cs.
- 20 (20x1) 120mm/50cs.
- 280mm belt.
- 22 knots.
- 20,000 t.

The "X" scheme presented here takes place while the battleships "Minas Geraes" and "Sao Paulo" were still being manufactured, while the battleship "Rio de Janeiro" had not yet begun construction (all design "494A") and while that Argentina was still negotiating to acquire three battleships, with capacities similar to the previous three.
When in 1910 Argentina opted for superior characteristics for its dreadnought battleships, Brazil would cancel the "Rio de Janeiro" (design "494A") and re-order it again with capabilities superior to that of the Argentinian ones (design "653").
Finally in 1911 Brazil re-ordered this third dreadnought (design "690A") with characteristics superior to the first two acquired (designs "494A"), but inferior to their previous order (design "653").

Regards

Additional information:
- Design 494A (1907): total 12 12"/45 guns, 6 towers with 2 guns, 2 towers in echelon, 10 guns in broadside.
- Design X (1909): total 14 12"/45 guns, 2 towers with 3 guns and 4 towers with 2 guns, 2 towers in echelon, 14 guns in broadside.
- Design 653 (1910): total 12 14"/45 guns, 6 towers with 2 guns, 2 towers in echelon, 12 in broadside.
- Design 690A (1910/11): total 14 12"/45 guns, 7 towers with 2 guns, 0 towers in echelon, 14 guns in broadside.

Source: Revista de Marina, Chile, 1909.
 
Gentleman,

I can’t give you much more information. ‘The Brazilian Navy naval refit policy, 1904-1945’ from WALDMANN Jr. is available in www.aca
Gentleman,

I can’t give you much more information. ‘The Brazilian Navy naval refit policy, 1904-1945’ from WALDMANN Jr. is available in www.academia.edu, a site for academic papers. It’s free. The article is unfortunately in portuguese, and don’t give any other informantion about specifications of the warships. I could have missed something in the translation, but according to the text all the related plans weren’t implemented for financial reasons.
Another good source of information - in english - is the article ‘Brazilian Dreadnoughts, 1904-1914’ from TOPLISS. It is available in www.jstor.org. This site is free for reading online, but you have to pay for any download.
Some time ago I received the image bellow, of a project for a brazilian battleship just before the ‘Minas Geraes’ design, that doens’t appear in any of the sources I have. I don’t know exactly the name of the book it comes from, but it’s about Armstronsg’s designs. I’d apreciate if someone could give more details about it.
As I said I’m interested in any information/drawings about these cruisers designs related by Tzoli:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902; Armstrong Design 405 from 1903; Armstrong Design 406 from 1903; Vickers Design 172 from 1906; Vickers Design 172A from 1906; Armstrong Design 532 from 1907; Armstrong Design 575 from 1907; Armstrong Design 650 from 1910; Vickers Design 835 from 1923; Vickers Design 1010 from 1923; Vickers Design 1013 from 1923 and Vickers Design 1045 from 1933.

demia.edu, a site for academic papers. It’s free. The article is unfortunately in portuguese, and don’t give any other informantion about specifications of the warships. I could have missed something in the translation, but according to the text all the related plans weren’t implemented for financial reasons.
Another good source of information - in english - is the article ‘Brazilian Dreadnoughts, 1904-1914’ from TOPLISS. It is available in www.jstor.org. This site is free for reading online, but you have to pay for any download.
Some time ago I received the image bellow, of a project for a brazilian battleship just before the ‘Minas Geraes’ design, that doens’t appear in any of the sources I have. I don’t know exactly the name of the book it comes from, but it’s about Armstronsg’s designs. I’d apreciate if someone could give more details about it.
As I said I’m interested in any information/drawings about these cruisers designs related by Tzoli:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902; Armstrong Design 405 from 1903; Armstrong Design 406 from 1903; Vickers Design 172 from 1906; Vickers Design 172A from 1906; Armstrong Design 532 from 1907; Armstrong Design 575 from 1907; Armstrong Design 650 from 1910; Vickers Design 835 from 1923; Vickers Design 1010 from 1923; Vickers Design 1013 from 1923 and Vickers Design 1045 from 1933.
Originally, these plans of 439a were found by myself, in Brazilian navy archives, and was firstly published , after redraw by Jurens, as an addenda letter to the magnificent article written by David Topliss about Brazilian Dreadnoughts.that was published in WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL - I.N.R.O. Number 1994- 03.
 

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