How can I possibly have missed that topic before??? ??? ??? ???

This is AWESOME! What we have now is a 1962-tested (probably conceived a couple of years before) reconnaissance aircraft project by Boeing that is not only a direct ancestor to the Bird of Prey (type of secret program, name, etc.), but which also featured shapes and a configuration that only appeared MUCH later in known flying program. There is a lot of this Quiet Bird in the F-23 design I think! These two photographs single-handedly redefine what we thought we knew about the advance of stealth design philosophy in the 1960s. I am simply IMPRESSED. Thank you SO much for sharing!
 
I won't comment much save to say that it makes Boeing's participation in TSSAM a lot more understandable.
 
Could the Quietbird be seen an progenitor to the Bird of Prey or was it a different developmental pathway due to the McDonnell Douglas origins of the Bird of Prey?
 
Here is a little comparison between the Quiet Bird, the X-36, the Bird of Prey and the YF-23A.

I doubt that the Boeing connection can be found directly in the other three as the two companies merged less than two decades ago.

However, I believe that preliminary research on the Boeing article probably led to very precise specifications for all subsequent research aircraft based on what it helped to investigate. This could perhaps explain the relative similarity of certain features.

As an aside, I include a stretched version of the Quiet Bird (photo resized with no aspect ratio maintained). You'll see that it makes the design connection even more visible between the QB and the more recent projects.
 

Attachments

  • comparison.jpg
    comparison.jpg
    146.3 KB · Views: 1,958
  • stretched_qb.jpg
    stretched_qb.jpg
    33.7 KB · Views: 1,804
Stargazer2006 said:
How can I possibly have missed that topic before??? ??? ??? ??

Same thing happened to me but with different threads... Looks like you've been promoted to Senior Member so can now see this new, restricted access part of the forum. Welcome aboard.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
Stargazer2006 said:
How can I possibly have missed that topic before??? ??? ??? ??

Same thing happened to me but with different threads... Looks like you've been promoted to Senior Member so can now see this new, restricted access part of the forum. Welcome aboard.

Don't know when that happened, but it's cool. Thanks!
 
This Quiet Bird has really inspired me... but don't you think it looks SQUAT???

Allow me to offer here:
1°) A comparison between the original diagram and an imaginary stretched version (obtained by resizing the image 150% x 100%)
2°) a color recreation of the aircraft in a desert setting, inspired by the original artwork in which I keep the proportions...
3°) another recreation in which I've used the imaginary stretched version whose proportions seem more realistic than the real article... (in both cases I readjusted the right wing according to perspective although it still doesn't look quite right).

This is NOT an official project at all and is not fit for this section... but since the graphics of the Quiet Bird are restricted to the "senior members" section for now, I don't want to spread it all around yet...
 

Attachments

  • qb-modification.jpg
    qb-modification.jpg
    64.2 KB · Views: 488
  • Quiet Bird.jpg
    Quiet Bird.jpg
    290.6 KB · Views: 450
  • stretched_qb_illustration.jpg
    stretched_qb_illustration.jpg
    296.3 KB · Views: 857
I know Matej, but thanks! I kind of figured that this later (imaginary) modification could have been flying into the 1980s, hence the low visibility scheme...
 
I've modified the images above as the wing attachment was erroneous.

I've also placed an illustration depicting the Quiet Bird "as is", along with my stretched re-interpretation...
 
Anyone notice that this thing bears a pretty good resemblance to McDonnell Douglas's Quiet Attack Aircraft for the ONR in '72-73?
 
Well, seems that QAA was a step back compared to QB...
 
The MDD's QAA's planform reminds me of the old McDonnell Moonbat...

index.php
 

Attachments

  • McDonnell XP-67 Wind Tunnel.jpg
    McDonnell XP-67 Wind Tunnel.jpg
    15.4 KB · Views: 363
I think the Quiet Bird design happens to look the part, so we are impressed by it. I'm not sure it would actually have been that stealthy however. The shaping is rudimentary, it would have relied primarily on RAM.
 
overscan said:
I think the Quiet Bird design happens to look the part, so we are impressed by it. I'm not sure it would actually have been that stealthy however. The shaping is rudimentary, it would have relied primarily on RAM.

They had a couple of things right, and overall I would say it was ahead of the it's peers at the time. Ryan made a lot of progress with RAM and inlet screens, this aircraft would have done a bit better I think.
 
quellish said:
They had a couple of things right, and overall I would say it was ahead of the it's peers at the time. Ryan made a lot of progress with RAM and inlet screens, this aircraft would have done a bit better I think.

Apparently they got more right than I thought:



 
Interesting. What do the new patents add? At first glance, they seem exactly the same as the old ones.
 
overscan said:
Interesting. What do the new patents add? At first glance, they seem exactly the same as the old ones.

I can't say I'm 100% sure yet. The dates on all of the QB patents are interesting. What additional novelty the individual patents cover that's not covered by the 2(?) broad ones that describe the whole system I don't yet know. What I've seen before is that there are additional details not shown unless you get the paper copy, though i do not know if that's the case here.

QB was clearly ahead of even the work we've seen dating from the 1970s, which continues to amaze me. They got a lot right, though not quite enough I think to get the dB reductions seen on the HAVE BLUE competitors. The methods outlined in the QB patents are in line with public knowledge of signature reduction previous to the F-117 becoming public, it would not surprise me if QB program veterans were sources for many of the articles full of Stealth Fighter conjecture.
 
Ghost Rocket has something about Quiet Bird.

http://ghostrocket.blogspot.com/2013/03/amazing-1963-stealth-design-patent.html
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Here is a little comparison between the Quiet Bird, the X-36, the Bird of Prey and the YF-23A.

I doubt that the Boeing connection can be found directly in the other three as the two companies merged less than two decades ago.

However, I believe that preliminary research on the Boeing article probably led to very precise specifications for all subsequent research aircraft based on what it helped to investigate. This could perhaps explain the relative similarity of certain features.

As an aside, I include a stretched version of the Quiet Bird (photo resized with no aspect ratio maintained). You'll see that it makes the design connection even more visible between the QB and the more recent projects.

When you are trying to reduce RCS on an aircraft, there is a tendency to converge on some of the same solutions. Large VLO platforms tend to look a lot like the early B-2, many current UCAVs have very similar outer mold lines, etc.

The Boeing (Quiet Bird) engineers did not have the modern analytical tools that the designers of the Bird of Prey and YF-23 had, but they were very determined and did have some tools that were far ahead of the times. The results of the Quiet Bird work, as far as I have been able to find out, were limited in distribution to Boeing and two other organizations - there most likely is not a direct connection between Quiet Bird and subsequent aircraft that are publicly known.
 
Main forum topic on Quiet Bird is here:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7460


(senior members only)


Mr Lowther, is it OK to move to public section now?
 
LONG ARM was a project evaluating medium jet aircraft (T-37) for Army battlefield observation needs. This would have been about the same time as the work on QUIET BIRD.

From:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a033626.pdf

"On 14 September, the Department of the Army approved the plan, subject to additional changes. CONARC then asked the Army Aviation School to submit personnel requisitions for the test unit, a detailed budget estimate, detailed plans for conduct of Phase II of the test, and a proposed TA for the test unit. The test unit for Project LONG ARM, as the T-37 test program was called, was activated by Third Army as the 7292d Aviation Unit on 5 November."

"The troop test of the T-37, as prepared by the Army Aviation School, had five objectives. First, to determine the most effective organization, the training, and logistical implications for higher performance Army observation aircraft within the field army, and to prepare tentative training literature. Second, to obtain an evalua- tion of higher performance observation aircraft vulnerability and survival probability when operating at various speeds and altitudes in the vicinity of enemy ground weapons, antiaircraft weapons, and surface-to-air guided missiles. This evaluation was to be based up- on the limitations of present and planned radar and weapons systems. and the reaction time of troops manning the weapons. Third, to determine the relative observation capabilities at various altitudes and speeds in both day and night operations. This objective would include determination of the capabilities for target identification. observer visibility transition training requirements, and observer adaptability from low to high speed aircraft and other factors affecting observation. Fourth, to develop and test operational procedures for target acquisition, damage assessment, surveillance, and adjustment of fire by higher performance Army observation air- craft. Finally, to recommend performance characteristics for a higher performance Army observation aircraft."

On 28 March 1958, the Department of the Army approved the extension of the T-37 test detachment thirough FY 1959 and extended the I in t the T-37 aircraft until January 1959. Long before the aircraft were returned to the Air Force, however, the Army had lost interest in Project LONG ARM. The Department of the Army was convinced that Air Force opposition had so influenced the thinking of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Department of Defense that it was not feasible to pursue the project. Additionally, the success in the development of the AO-1 MOHAWK airplane had met most of the observation requirements being studied in the tests."
 
The Quiet Bird patent mentions a copending patent application 263,704 for "Open Cell Rigid Foam" by Marlan R. Pollock & Marlyn F. Harp.

This seems to have been abandoned (or not granted) and resubmitted in slightly modified form in 1982:

Open cell rigid thermoset foams and method

http://www.google.com/patents/US4454248
 
There is a video where this exact aircraft is depicted following a Hercules airframe....except its a Lockheed wall the arts hanging on!
 
Impressive. Interesting to see that even Boeing don't know that much about it.
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    55.8 KB · Views: 559
  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    60.3 KB · Views: 499
  • 3.jpg
    3.jpg
    68.7 KB · Views: 492
  • 4.jpg
    4.jpg
    54.6 KB · Views: 498
  • 5.jpg
    5.jpg
    93.3 KB · Views: 354
  • 6.jpg
    6.jpg
    71 KB · Views: 774
  • 7.jpg
    7.jpg
    71.9 KB · Views: 276
It seems to me that this design got some of the basics of stealth absolutely right, and was impressive for its age, like the Lockheed A-12 but less constrained by required performance. It didn't have edge / planform alignment however. It would have been moderately hard to detect - but planform alignment was the key to significant reduction in RCS.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Merged with 6 year old topic from Private Discussions as pictures and info are now public.
So. What else is lurking in 'Private Discussions'? Lord Lucan?
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom