Boeing F-15EX/QA and related variants

[NMaude]

I wonder if it's possible to rearrange jamming pods into conformal tanks, and get a proper raven replacement this way.

You could do that with the F-15 and its' conformal tanks.

 

[Forest Green]

Silver Star Airpower: Inside an F-15 Mission to Block an Attack on Israel

Airmen from the 494th Fighter Squadron were honored with the Silver Star and more for their actions protecting Israel from an Iranian attack.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Josh_TN]

The USAF has no requirement for tactical escort jammers and the USN no longer maintains separate joint units. USMC fulfills all of its its EW requirements with F-35B. There is no requirement for tactical jammers outside the USN.

 

[Forest Green]

I'm wondering whether the decision not to have a gun on F-35Bs and Cs was a good one? I guess they have a pod option though.

F-15E Pilot Recounts Having To Switch To Guns After Missiles Ran Dry During Iranian Drone Barrage

The F-15E crew's story is one of many that night, with the type swatting down more than 70 Iranian drones in a matter of hours.

www.twz.com

 

[FighterJock]

The F-35B has to have a gun pod because of the lift fan being in the same area as where the ammunition box would be, I do not know why the F-35C has a gun pod as that does not have the same issue as the B model.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The F-35B has to have a gun pod because of the lift fan being in the same area as where the ammunition box would be, I do not know why the F-35C has a gun pod as that does not have the same issue as the B model.

Maybe for more internal fuel?

 

[helmutkohl]

The F-35B has to have a gun pod because of the lift fan being in the same area as where the ammunition box would be, I do not know why the F-35C has a gun pod as that does not have the same issue as the B model.

what's the ammo capacity of the gun pod compared to the internal one on the A if you know?

 

[GTX]

what's the ammo capacity of the gun pod compared to the internal one on the A if you know?

F-35A: 180 rounds
F-35B/C Gun pod: 220 rounds

 

[Forest Green]

Is the pod integrated properly with the radar gun sight?

 

[_Del_]

And keep in mind that the F-4G Wild Weasel was conversion of existing F-4E Phantoms* and the F-4G turned out to be a very useful aircraft (IMO I think its' retirement, like that of the EF-111A, was premature), an EF-15 would have considerably greater range than an EA-18G and it could fly supersonically (Apparently the Growler can't when carrying its' jammer-pods).

We're quickly reaching the point with processing power and "AI" that hanging an ALQ-131 under an aircraft and linking to the aircrafts AESA and EW suite is going to be adequate for most environments.
Every plane down to the F-16 is carrying an integrated EW suite that would embarrass a Sparkvark in everything but pure wattage.

For the most dangerous environments, that is why you have stealth aircraft. Not just for the lower signature itself allowing you to get closer before the detection threshold, but because you need less wattage for effective jamming or the same wattage is way more effective.

If my signature is only 1/10th of an F-15 (and the F-35 is much lower), then I only need 10% of the F-15's wattage to prevent burn through by a given radar at a given range. If the F-15 can get within 30 miles of a radar with a given wattage, I can get within 10 miles with the same wattage.

If you were going to make a stand-in dedicated jammer, you would want it stealthy. Maybe there is already a black program that exists or existed as a silver bullet, or maybe they think current force structure is adequate. There was probably a "hole" in the requirement between the retirement of the Ravens and the F-35 entering operational status, but there really isn't one now.

 

[Ozair]

We're quickly reaching the point with processing power and "AI" that hanging an ALQ-131 under an aircraft and linking to the aircrafts AESA and EW suite is going to be adequate for most environments.
Every plane down to the F-16 is carrying an integrated EW suite that would embarrass a Sparkvark in everything but pure wattage.

For the most dangerous environments, that is why you have stealth aircraft. Not just for the lower signature itself allowing you to get closer before the detection threshold, but because you need less wattage for effective jamming or the same wattage is way more effective.

If my signature is only 1/10th of an F-15 (and the F-35 is much lower), then I only need 10% of the F-15's wattage to prevent burn through by a given radar at a given range. If the F-15 can get within 30 miles of a radar with a given wattage, I can get within 10 miles with the same wattage.

If you were going to make a stand-in dedicated jammer, you would want it stealthy. Maybe there is already a black program that exists or existed as a silver bullet, or maybe they think current force structure is adequate. There was probably a "hole" in the requirement between the retirement of the Ravens and the F-35 entering operational status, but there really isn't one now.

From a USAF perspective there is also MALD-J/X which now numbers above 1000 delivered. It provides a stand-in jamming role at a comparatively very low cost per unit.

 

[_Del_]

From a USAF perspective there is also MALD-J/X which now numbers above 1000 delivered. It provides a stand-in jamming role at a comparatively very low cost per unit.

And various drones, like Valkyrie, etc. Which can all network into the ABMS.

 

[Josh_TN]

And in the future the CCAs. I suspect stand in jamming will be a capability even for Incr1. Escort/standoff jamming simply is not cost effective in most situations. The USN has some ratunique needs, however.

 

[NMaude]

The USN has some ratunique needs, however.

ratunique?

 

[HaveVoid]

Rather unique, I suspect

 

[Moose]

Is the pod integrated properly with the radar gun sight?

Yes, the pod is fully integrated. However the gun pod gun is designed for CAS not dogfighting. On a dogfighter the gun is often mounted slightly inclined to lob rounds out in front of the aircraft, this isn't practical or desirable on a gunpod.

 

[Ainen]

I personally find optimism in replacing a ew operator and full power wideband jamming to be rather... ahead of schedule.
Given that even the growlers thoroughly jam themselves when active.

It wasn't even long since it was said to be the next big thing in NGAD.
Furthermore, USAF isn't exactly ahead of the pack in elaborate integrated self defense suits european jets are known for.

Gut feeling is that it was and it remains USAF F-35 funding protection, rather than lack of perceived requirement.

 

[RJMAZ]

Maybe for more internal fuel?

Maybe because guns are irrelevant

 

[FighterJock]

Guns I think will still be relevant we learned that the hard way during the course of the Vietnam war sadly when they tried to replace guns with missiles and that did not work out well in the end.

 

[Manuducati]

Wild Weasel F-15 (including specialized FAST packs) has been studied - and rejected - several times. First as a two seat F-15E variant (around 1983), than as a modified F-15C (in 1994, lost to the F-16CJ).
But the idea is still revisited regularly, without success.

Boeing Is Evaluating The F-15EX As Successor Of The EA-18G Growler

The new “Wild Weasel” variant of the F-15EX would make use of both existing capabilities of the aircraft, as well as new ones integrated from the Growler.

theaviationist.com

 

[RJMAZ]

Guns I think will still be relevant we learned that the hard way during the course of the Vietnam war sadly when they tried to replace guns with missiles and that did not work out well

They have learnt from that lesson that's why they have the gun pod. If a pilot reports that their missiles keep missing they can fit a gunpod for the very next mission. The gun pods will sit around gathering dust.

 

[Josh_TN]

Guns I think will still be relevant we learned that the hard way during the course of the Vietnam war sadly when they tried to replace guns with missiles and that did not work out well in the end.

I think there are few if any gun kills post Vietnam. Technology has moved on. I think even using guns for ground work is incredibly misguided in ~$100 million fighters. There’s no shortage of small cheap guided projectiles that could be used instead, and the trigger time on a modern gun is only a handful of bursts.

 

[RJMAZ]

I think their is quite a dirty of gun kills post Vietnam. Technology has moved on. I think even using guns for ground work is incredibly misguided in ~$100 million fighters. There’s no shortage of small cheap guided projectiles that could be used instead, and the trigger time on a modern gun is only a handful of bursts.

100% agreed. The only people who still think a gun is needed are the A-10 fanboys. They are trying to fabricate a reason to keep the cannon.

Laser guided munitions are getting smaller and smaller to completely cover any potential target. They now have 70mm laser guided rockets mounted on F-16's to hit small targets. They can hit targets 3-4 times further away than a cannon and the aircraft stays at a much safer distance.

The US has even used the 70mm laser guided rocket in the air to air role having shot down drones. I can see small mini missiles being used in the near future for close in dogfighting and to also shoot down enemy air to air missiles. For the people who are obsessed with cannons I like to describe the mini missiles as laser guided bullets firing from a low recoil cannon. It makes the idea more acceptable when you say the 20mm cannon firing unguided bullets is being replaced with a 40mm cannon firing laser guided bullets.

 

[Forest Green]

Boeing Is Evaluating The F-15EX As Successor Of The EA-18G Growler

The new “Wild Weasel” variant of the F-15EX would make use of both existing capabilities of the aircraft, as well as new ones integrated from the Growler.

theaviationist.com

The obvious problem there is that it's not carrier-capable.

 

[FighterJock]

I cannot see how they could modify the F-15EX into a carrier capable fighter without having to spend huge amounts of money in the process and in the end it would just prove to be far too expensive.

 

[Josh_TN]

The USN already has a tactical jamming aircraft, and it will be the last of its kind in U.S. service.

 

[Ainen]

The USN already has a tactical jamming aircraft, and it will be the last of its kind in U.S. service.

This is a bold statement.

 

[Josh_TN]

This is a bold statement.

And I stand by it. If I am wrong ten years from now, I owe you a coke. Stand off and escort jamming are a dying breed, since predictive jamming is almost impossible and the advantages of lower powered unmanned stand in platforms make such far more cost effective.

 

[Ainen]

And I stand by it. If I am wrong ten years from now, I owe you a coke. Stand off and escort jamming are a dying breed, since predictive jamming is almost impossible and the advantages of lower powered unmanned stand in platforms make such far more cost effective.

Ok!
I recorded

My position is that it goes against a whole procession of modern programs: big NGJ effort (including special interest since 2022 and Boeing statement on f-15ex this summer), two Chinese Dian flankers, very fresh solutions from Russia and Israel; European effort.

Not even taking into account active proliferation of self defense suits so elaborate that few dedicated SEADs of the past could dream about something so comprehensive; those include several USAF programs.
And most certainly 5th gen offensive/escort jamming doesn't look dead


Too many impossibles. And the best explanation to them isn't that jamming is dead, it's that USAF needed to get the F-35 into safety first.

No one sane will pitch tactical fighter against jammers, of course, but politics are not about sanity.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Maybe because guns are irrelevant

Tell that to the pilots that have gun kills of drones from the last couple times Iran has had a hissy-fit and thrown shit at Israel.

 

[NMaude]

Tell that to the pilots that have gun kills of drones from the last couple times Iran has had a hissy-fit and thrown shit at Israel.

Guns are ideal for shooting down drones such as the Shaheed 136 and low-cost cruise missiles also for intercepting such targets once all onboard AAMs have been expended.

 

[Ainen]

Tell that to the pilots that have gun kills of drones from the last couple times Iran has had a hissy-fit and thrown shit at Israel.

To be fair，dumb, small caliber shells are a rather inefficient way of doing that. I doubt that even in Iranian spring scenario guns of the intercepting force really paid off their weight and volume.

It takes significant space and weight (gun+structural reinforcement+ammo), involves significant risks and time waste due to gun pass geometry; unsuccessful pass makes second attack hard to execute.

In the end, while automatic cannon is a swiss knife, it's a rather short one, and you can only thrust it right in front of you. It's good to have when you have it, it's certainly stupid to remove gun without appropriate compensation just because of BVR enthusiasts, but...

Something like apkws, or maybe a medium caliber, moderate power gun(35-57mm) with some similar guidance principle(laser, it, saclos, whatever) can achieve more engagements per sortie, much safer.


But that's for the future. Or back to the future, because such guns and rockets are so 1940s

 

[RJMAZ]

Guns are ideal for shooting down drones such as the Shaheed 136 and low-cost cruise missiles also for intercepting such targets once all onboard AAMs have been expended.

Yes the gun is used only after they ran out of missiles. If a fighter had a 20 small stinger missiles I'm sure these would have been used instead of the gun.

The US is moving towards very small missiles such as MSDM. They can shoot down missiles with missiles.

 

[TomcatViP]

Directed energy is the real future of embedded gunnery for fighter aircraft. HPMW could be part of our fighter as early as tomorrow if the right decisions are made and appropriate red tapes lifted. Laser would join the fray later on a cost related basis.
Directed energy solves the magazine depth dilemma in front of a roboticized threat. It has also larger "aperture", meaning that it´s not an accuracy determined weapon, ideally closing the loop with short range missiles in front of a saturated and targets rich environment.

 

[Josh_TN]

Tell that to the pilots that have gun kills of drones from the last couple times Iran has had a hissy-fit and thrown shit at Israel.

The only account of a gun battle against Iranian drones I have read was a miss by an F-15. In any case, if UAVs are the target set a 70mm hydra pod is more stored jills than any non A-10 gun. F-15/16 have like 500 rounds? Five seconds of trigger time, if you can a moving target that is flying so slow you have to do gun runs like it was a ground target. F-35 ~200.

Or use a rocket. Laser guidance against air targets has bee successfully tested. There are already RF and IIR seekers in the works for hydra; those are far superior solutions to the problem than guns.

 

[Josh_TN]

Ok!
I recorded

My position is that it goes against a whole procession of modern programs: big NGJ effort (including special interest since 2022 and Boeing statement on f-15ex this summer), two Chinese Dian flankers, very fresh solutions from Russia and Israel; European effort.

Not even taking into account active proliferation of self defense suits so elaborate that few dedicated SEADs of the past could dream about something so comprehensive; those include several USAF programs.
And most certainly 5th gen offensive/escort jamming doesn't look dead


Too many impossibles. And the best explanation to them isn't that jamming is dead, it's that USAF needed to get the F-35 into safety first.

No one sane will pitch tactical fighter against jammers, of course, but politics are not about sanity.

There will still be ECM of course, it is just going to be in every fighter, CCA, and decoy rather than in dedicated tactical platforms (there will still be the compass call type aircraft but that is not an escort jammer). The USN has a unique situation where it needs to potentially use ECM defensely (note that with NGJ the F-18G combat radius goes down to like 300-400 miles due to drag). The PLAN likely similar. But I think the Growler is the end of the line in US service. Quite honestly I find the German effort puzzling given the fact they are adopting F-35 already for the nuclear role; Lightning’s an out of the box SEAD platform. The USAF has not seen a need for a specialized standoff/escort jammer for decades and likely will never produce another dedicated SEAD type now that the capability is baked into F-35.

 

[FighterJock]

Looking forward to the day the first fighter comes with Directed Energy (Lasers) instead of traditional guns as standard TomcatVIP, I do not think that day is so far away now.

 

[TomS]

Guns are ideal for shooting down drones such as the Shaheed 136 and low-cost cruise missiles also for intercepting such targets once all onboard AAMs have been expended.

Saudi Arabia has been knocking down Shaheed 136 or equivalent drones for a few years with few if any guns kills.

There's an interesting story about an F-15E trying to make a guns kill on a drone during the big Iranian barrage back in April. Scary and not very effective. The overtaking speed of an F-15 vs a Shaheed makes it a very tricky thing to do safely.

F-15E Pilot Recounts Having To Switch To Guns After Missiles Ran Dry During Iranian Drone Barrage

The F-15E crew's story is one of many that night, with the type swatting down more than 70 Iranian drones in a matter of hours.

www.twz.com

 

[FighterJock]

Did not know that TomS about the Saudi's trying to shoot down a Shaheed drone, I would have thought that they would go with sidewinders first. The RAF Typhoons shot down a few drones with ASRAAMs when they were shooting them down.

 

[TomS]

Did not know that TomS about the Saudi's trying to shoot down a Shaheed drone, I would have thought that they would go with sidewinders first. The RAF Typhoons shot down a few drones with ASRAAMs when they were shooting them down.

They do. AMRAAM and Sidewinder are both used, but almost never guns.