Boeing F-15EX/QA and related variants

[aonestudio]

Still no official confirmation on the purchase yet from Indonesia.

 

[TomcatViP]

Are we sure the French Rafale contract is for firm orders? That would explain better the mixed fleet. Also has Indonesia confirmed order of EWPAS? That EW Israeli pod spotted recently might then well be for them.

 

[alberchico]

Are we sure the French Rafale contract is for firm orders? That would explain better the mixed fleet. Also has Indonesia confirmed order of EWPAS... That EW Israeli pod might then well be for them.

Nouveau succès pour Dassault Aviation : l'Indonésie va acheter jusqu'à 42 Rafale

Nouveau succès pour le Rafale. L'Indonésie a signé un contrat pour 6 Rafale dans une commande totale prévue de 42 avions de combat, a annoncé jeudi le ministre de la Défense indonésien Prabowo Subianto.

www.latribune.fr

According to this article it's going to be 6 firm orders with 36 options.

 

[totoro]

It would seem likely that at least one, if not two of the following three will simply not be part of Indonesia's fleet, due to cost. Rafale, F-15, KFX. Indonesia can't possibly afford almost a 100 high performance fighter jets.

 

[Umigami]

It would seem likely that at least one, if not two of the following three will simply not be part of Indonesia's fleet, due to cost. Rafale, F-15, KFX. Indonesia can't possibly afford almost a 100 high performance fighter jets.

We aiming for all 3

 

[GTX]

So their air force will be flying F-15s

Not necessarily. This is just a FMS ruling giving Indonesia permission to buy. It may not actually occur.

 

[TomcatViP]

Egypt! (no EX is mentioned but that's my own understanding)

Washington to provide Egypt with F-15 jets, U.S. general says

The top U.S. general for forces in the Middle East said on Tuesday that he believed the United States would provide Egypt with F-15 aircraft.

www.reuters.com

 

[isayyo2]

Egypt! (no EX is mentioned but that's my own understanding)

Replacing their Su-35 order?

 

[TomcatViP]

Those Su-35 might be better :
- a/ off Egyptian air force inventory
- b/ at Russians disposal.

But then, again, with the extra Rafale order, that's a lot of long range twins for the Egyptian air force. The refocus on projection of power is noteworthy.

 

[isayyo2]

But then, again, with the extra Rafale order, that's a lot of long range twins for the Egyptian air force. The refocus on projection of power is noteworthy.

I could see the US doing a similar deal to the Indonesian Block 52ID: donate the F-15's for free and then have the Egyptians pay for the airframe modernization/life extension, pilot training, and munitions.

 

[GTX]

Probably not quite correct but you get the idea:

 

[stealthflanker]

I could see the US doing a similar deal to the Indonesian Block 52ID: donate the F-15's for free and then have the Egyptians pay for the airframe modernization/life extension, pilot training, and munitions.

I'm curious if it could be the case. Back in the day Indonesia did seek used F-15 which turns out to be unavailable. It has to be from US unit or brand new.

Also for Egyptian case tho. I wonder if they would be happy with the deal assuming it "replace" supposedly already paid Su-35's. as F-15C model does not actually match with Su-35 capabilty wise.

 

[GTX]

I'm curious if it could be the case. Back in the day Indonesia did seek used F-15 which turns out to be unavailable. It has to be from US unit or brand new.

New via FMS:

Indonesia – F-15ID Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[isayyo2]

I could see the US doing a similar deal to the Indonesian Block 52ID: donate the F-15's for free and then have the Egyptians pay for the airframe modernization/life extension, pilot training, and munitions.

I'm curious if it could be the case. Back in the day Indonesia did seek used F-15 which turns out to be unavailable. It has to be from US unit or brand new.

Also for Egyptian case tho. I wonder if they would be happy with the deal assuming it "replace" supposedly already paid Su-35's. as F-15C model does not actually match with Su-35 capabilty wise.

They should take notes from their neighbor, Israel does pretty well with their C/D Baz fleet. Thinking about their Rafale deal specifically lacking Meteor's and their MiG-29M's using mechanical radars, I think their now canned Su-35's would have been similarly hobbled. Used C/D's would all have AESA by now right? With Israel getting F-35's into full service it wouldn't be shocking for the US to finally supply the Egyptians with AIM-120's, albeit the older B/C models...

 

[isayyo2]

Here's The War Zone opinion piece which sums it up nicely

The U.S. Is Poised To Offer F-15 Eagles To Egypt

Cairo is in the market for a new heavy fighter, but some in Washington will likely want human rights improvements before signing off on a deal.

www.thedrive.com

At this point, there is no confirmation as to how many F-15s Egypt may be in line to receive, or when deliveries may take place. It’s also unclear what version of the jets would be offered, but some iteration of the new-build F-15EX now being delivered to the U.S. Air Force seems most likely.

As an alternative to another export version of the F-15EX, it’s conceivable that Egypt could be in line for second-hand F-15C/D jets provided from U.S. Air Force stocks. With the F-15EX soon coming into service, and with F-35As replacing legacy Eagles with some frontline units, there is the possibility that F-15C/Ds may become available for transfer. Despite their age, these are also formidable fighters, having been successively upgraded — featuring a new cockpit display system and active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar — to keep them highly potent. Still, these freshest of the nearly 40-year-old jets will eventually need airframe lifespan extension in the coming decade or so that would be a costly investment, and of course, they do not possess robust air-to-ground capabilities like the far more advanced F-15EX. All this could actually play into the decision to provide Egypt with Eagle capability, ending up as being something of a compromise.

 

[TomcatViP]

Concerning the airframe refresh, there is also the reconditioned wings sets in Saudi Arabia that are deemed of not much use with the new Eagle buy.

 

[isayyo2]

Concerning the airframe refresh, there is also the reconditioned wings sets in Saudi Arabia that are deemed of not much use with the new Eagle buy.

If the Saudi’s are game, their large fleet of C/D Eagles would be the perfect source for Egypt. While they’re a bit outdated, they would probably be in much better shape than the American equivalents. Saudi Arabia has been bankrolling the Egyptian modernization, might as well donate two or three dozen Eagles and replace them with Typhoons…

 

[rooster]

Concerning the airframe refresh, there is also the reconditioned wings sets in Saudi Arabia that are deemed of not much use with the new Eagle buy.

If the Saudi’s are game, their large fleet of C/D Eagles would be the perfect source for Egypt. While they’re a bit outdated, they would probably be in much better shape than the American equivalents. Saudi Arabia has been bankrolling the Egyptian modernization, might as well donate two or three dozen Eagles and replace them with Typhoons…

Maybe America should guy them back and upgrade. Our Eagles are quite worn out excluding the E

 

[aim9xray]

Which are only moderately worn out.

 

[helmutkohl]

not sure if already addressed..
but what happens to the Russian types in inventory or on order in Egypt and Indonesia, if they go ahead with the F-15s?
will they be phased out? cancelled?

 

[isayyo2]

not sure if already addressed..
but what happens to the Russian types in inventory or on order in Egypt and Indonesia, if they go ahead with the F-15s?
will they be phased out? cancelled?

Probably in a similar position to Malaysia, their MKM’s are all but grounded and need servicing/certification that can only be performed in Russia apparently.

 

[helmutkohl]

not sure if already addressed..
but what happens to the Russian types in inventory or on order in Egypt and Indonesia, if they go ahead with the F-15s?
will they be phased out? cancelled?

Probably in a similar position to Malaysia, their MKM’s are all but grounded and need servicing/certification that can only be performed in Russia apparently.

i've always felt for countries that have access to "western" aircraft, but also a desire to reduce/distance itself from the US.. US-French combo would be better than US-Russian or French-Russian, especially in terms of supplies.

 

[TomcatViP]

Israel is actively supporting the deal:

Israel urges Biden administration to sell F-15 fighter jets to Egypt

Israel is encouraging the Biden administration to approve a major arms deal with Egypt for the sale of F-15 fighter jets, two senior Israeli defense officials told Axios.Why it matters: The Israeli lobbying efforts show the depth of the Israeli-Egyptian relationship in recent years and the...

news.yahoo.com

 

[helmutkohl]

Israel is actively supporting the deal:

Israel urges Biden administration to sell F-15 fighter jets to Egypt

Israel is encouraging the Biden administration to approve a major arms deal with Egypt for the sale of F-15 fighter jets, two senior Israeli defense officials told Axios.Why it matters: The Israeli lobbying efforts show the depth of the Israeli-Egyptian relationship in recent years and the...

news.yahoo.com

while I know relations have changed a lot these past few decades.. it still sounds weird to read..
Israel wants Egypt to get new jets

 

[isayyo2]

Israel is actively supporting the deal:

Israel urges Biden administration to sell F-15 fighter jets to Egypt

Israel is encouraging the Biden administration to approve a major arms deal with Egypt for the sale of F-15 fighter jets, two senior Israeli defense officials told Axios.Why it matters: The Israeli lobbying efforts show the depth of the Israeli-Egyptian relationship in recent years and the...

news.yahoo.com

while I know relations have changed a lot these past few decades.. it still sounds weird to read..
Israel wants Egypt to get new jets

It sure is a nice change of pace, that’s for sure.

 

[mkellytx]

Israel is actively supporting the deal:

Israel urges Biden administration to sell F-15 fighter jets to Egypt

Israel is encouraging the Biden administration to approve a major arms deal with Egypt for the sale of F-15 fighter jets, two senior Israeli defense officials told Axios.Why it matters: The Israeli lobbying efforts show the depth of the Israeli-Egyptian relationship in recent years and the...

news.yahoo.com

while I know relations have changed a lot these past few decades.. it still sounds weird to read..
Israel wants Egypt to get new jets

It sure is a nice change of pace, that’s for sure.

It would be a nice change pace, perhaps even some mutual interest, one always hopes for the better angels... The cynic in me thinks they trust the Americans to withdraw the tech support more than the Russians if the Islamists take over again.

 

[TomcatViP]

Double posting here:

Air Force's math on the F-15EX and F-35 doesn't add up - Breaking Defense

In a new op-ed, JV Venable of the Heritage Foundation goes deep on Air Force budget figures to answer the question of which is more expenses, the F-35A or F-15EX.

breakingdefense.com

With an interesting price breakdown document under excel available here

F15EX vs F35 costs

t.co

Remark:
I had no idea that Legion pod was so expensive

 

[zebra159357]

The F-15EX Program Is In Trouble

The Air Force is looking to reduce the size of its F-15EX buy to the point that it is likely to be more trouble than it's worth.

www.thedrive.com

 

[sferrin]

So they're reducing the F-35 AND the F-15EX buy? FFS.

 

[Sundog]

So they're reducing the F-35 AND the F-15EX buy? FFS.

And increasing money for NGAD and upgrading F-22s with systems being developed for NGAD. It isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.

 

[sferrin]

So they're reducing the F-35 AND the F-15EX buy? FFS.

And increasing money for NGAD and upgrading F-22s with systems being developed for NGAD. It isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.

Let's hope so.

 

[rooster]

So they're reducing the F-35 AND the F-15EX buy? FFS.

And increasing money for NGAD and upgrading F-22s with systems being developed for NGAD. It isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.

Yeah its obvious. I've seen this movie before and its called kicking the can down the road. "We're not going to buy these systems today but we will buy something else better in the future when whatever it is becomes available". The last version of this same tired movie starred the f22 and f35. Now its the f35 and ngad. Before that it was called the seawolf. It isn't difficult to see what's going on. It's the same thing going on that gave us an air force with 60 year old bombers and 35 year old fighters. Oh yeah they're unwilling to buy the f35 but they will placate you with look "we're spending 250 million on ngad this year so to away and shut up."

 

[Volkodav]

Double posting here:

Air Force's math on the F-15EX and F-35 doesn't add up - Breaking Defense

In a new op-ed, JV Venable of the Heritage Foundation goes deep on Air Force budget figures to answer the question of which is more expenses, the F-35A or F-15EX.

breakingdefense.com

With an interesting price breakdown document under excel available here

F15EX vs F35 costs

t.co

Remark:
I had no idea that Legion pod was so expensive

Wow!

So the F-35 is cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate as well as being more capable and survivable. No wonder so many nations are selecting it despite the bad press.

I wonder how it compares to current production F/A-18, F-16, Typhoon, Rafale, etc?

 

[Jeb]

So they're reducing the F-35 AND the F-15EX buy? FFS.

And increasing money for NGAD and upgrading F-22s with systems being developed for NGAD. It isn't difficult to figure out what's going on.

I wonder if this means that there has been a technology breakthrough that's changed the math for 6th gen. Whatever problem they were solving for with the F-15EX may have just become a lot less of a problem.

 

[Josh_TN]

My personal guess is that USAF is now exclusively focusing on countering China in the medium term at the expense of being able to counter Russia in the near term, because the latter is now a reduced threat for several reasons. Its air force isn't performing as well as expected and it is suffering small but hard to replace material losses. Also at the strategic level it seems very likely that Europe increases its defense budgets, NATO gains at least one new member (who already has a substantial F-35 contract), and Russia likely needs years to rebuild its conventional capability on the ground. Even before the war, Norway, Finland, and Poland were going to buy a combined ~150 F-35s which would have outnumbered Russia's existing Su-57 contract(s) 2 : 1 (~75 airframes to be completed by 2027-28). NATO air dominance in any future European war seems pretty solid in that context.

Taken all together, the USAF probably feels it doesn't need the kind of resources for Europe it thought it did back in February. Hence dropping E-3s, F-15s, and even Block 20 F-22s. The drop in F-35s seems to be in anticipation of getting Blk4s fresh off the production line and refocusing money on F-15s in the short term since it is a mature design. The total number of F-15EX dropped but the number to be purchased in the short term I think actually increased.

There also might be some kind of NGAD activity affecting this as well but the timing makes me think the decisions are being driven more by current events.

 

[Josh_TN]

One more thing to add on this - at one point a retired USAF official was quoted as saying there may have to two different versions of NGAD, a European theater variant and a longer ranged Pacific variant. I think we can say with confidence that any consideration of producing a Euro centric version of the airframe have been dropped at this point.

Found the relevant quote:

"Retired Gen. James M. Holmes, former of Air Combat Command, has said there may be two variants of NGAD: one with long range and payload for the Indo-Pacific and one more oriented to the relatively short ranges between possible battle areas in Europe."

Brown: NGAD Will be a Multirole Fighter - Air Force Magazine

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. testified to the House Armed Services Committee about the Next-Generation Air Dominance fighter and the F-35 purchases in the 2022 budget.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[rooster]

My personal guess is that USAF is now exclusively focusing on countering China in the medium term at the expense of being able to counter Russia in the near term, because the latter is now a reduced threat for several reasons. Its air force isn't performing as well as expected and it is suffering small but hard to replace material losses. Also at the strategic level it seems very likely that Europe increases its defense budgets, NATO gains at least one new member (who already has a substantial F-35 contract), and Russia likely needs years to rebuild its conventional capability on the ground. Even before the war, Norway, Finland, and Poland were going to buy a combined ~150 F-35s which would have outnumbered Russia's existing Su-57 contract(s) 2 : 1 (~75 airframes to be completed by 2027-28). NATO air dominance in any future European war seems pretty solid in that context.

Taken all together, the USAF probably feels it doesn't need the kind of resources for Europe it thought it did back in February. Hence dropping E-3s, F-15s, and even Block 20 F-22s. The drop in F-35s seems to be in anticipation of getting Blk4s fresh off the production line and refocusing money on F-15s in the short term since it is a mature design. The total number of F-15EX dropped but the number to be purchased in the short term I think actually increased.

There also might be some kind of NGAD activity affecting this as well but the timing makes me think the decisions are being driven more by current events.

It's being driven by the ideology of who pulling Biden's strings in the White House. You will be lucky to even get 1:1 replacement of NGAD for the F-22. They've already basically cancelled the EX, cut the 35, and are divesting 1400 aircraft and the B-21 will produced at a whopping 5 aircraft a year. The Air Force is basically about to become the Chair Force. This is like watching Charlie Brown keep falling for the football trick with every new weapons system developed and cut over the last 30 years.

 

[Josh_TN]

My understanding is that these proposals come from the Air Force, not the White House. If they want more money, then it is the legislative branch that controls the purse, not the executive. So I think your post comes with some...strings attached...

 

[GTX]

My understanding is that these proposals come from the Air Force, not the White House. If they want more money, then it is the legislative branch that controls the purse, not the executive. So I think your post comes with some...strings attached...

Agreed - don't get worked up over USAF (and other service) budget posturing.

 

[Archibald]

It's being driven by the ideology of who pulling Biden's strings in the White House.

What bullshit. As if precious Republicans had done any better than Democrats on military grounds - over the last 30 years.