Blue Streak based satellite transport system

[Barrington Bond]

Hawker Siddely / 1963? Quite possibly - will check when I can (domestic emergency meant I had to leave suddenly from the NAL). When did De Havilland cease as an entity as it was from the De Havilland Gazette? Should be able to look at Der Fleiger on my next visit.

Strike first line as just checked on website and De Havilland Gazette only goes to 1961!

Regards,
Barry

 

[Michel Van]

OK, so we've seen proposals for Blue Streak attached the Blue Steak in a CCB arrangement but what are the possibilities of 2, 3 or 4 Blue Steak attached to a larger diameter core stage?

here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8719.0.html

 

[starviking]

Hawker Siddely / 1963? Quite possibly - will check when I can (domestic emergency meant I had to leave suddenly from the NAL). When did De Havilland cease as an entity as it was from the De Havilland Gazette? Should be able to look at Der Fleiger on my next visit.

Strike first line as just checked on website and De Havilland Gazette only goes to 1961!

Regards,
Barry

Well that's a puzzler! Flight International of 16 May 1963 gives HSA Ltd. being formed 'shortly'. One of the divisions of HSAL was to be the de Havilland Division.http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200727.html

 

[Barrington Bond]

Well I'll double check next time I can get to the NAL. They've got a better photocopier now and there was other bits in the De Havilland Gazette I wanted.

Regards,
Barry

 

[Spark]

OK, so we've seen proposals for Blue Streak attached the Blue Steak in a CCB arrangement but what are the possibilities of 2, 3 or 4 Blue Steak attached to a larger diameter core stage?

Hi PMN1,

I feel sure it could have happened given time and the political will.
It is a logical extension but think of the implications for programme planning and what could have been placed in a standard 300n.mile LEO.
Cleaver was postulating about 16ton LEO (300n.mileLEO) for what would have been the standard RAF SLV and one would guess at about 8ton for the basic SLV (ten foot diameter Blue Streak).

So four basic boosters wrap-round the larger core how does that compare with Saturn V? About half a Sa.V payload?


AND very cheap to launch

 

[Michel Van]

let's take that cluster Idea
a ELDO-B carry 3 tons in 300n mile LEO
as cluster 4 ELDO-B makes 12 tons payload
replace that 4 upper stage by big one with 6mø
and we have a 16 tons

there was a proposal for a 12xRZ.2 engine rocket (first stage reuse)
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6954.0.html

 

[alertken]

What we actually chose to do was not expensively to duplicate, but to hitch a ride on Thor-Delta as Philco-Ford Skynet 1 (1969) then Philco/MSDS Skynet 2 (1974). From 23/5/63 all UK nuclear assets to be deployed in the NATO/CENTO theatres were subordinate to Allied Supreme Commanders, so why persevere with meaningless, dear, painful "independence"? Our Euro-NATO colleagues pooled their techno-workshare into NATO-1 (1970) &tc. systems. That involved digesting US technology into local workshare. Luxemburg was entitled to 1% of NATO IV, so the Ford/MSDS bid to that...placed Proposal printing there.

 

[Spark]

What we actually chose to do was not expensively to duplicate, but to hitch a ride on Thor-Delta as Philco-Ford Skynet 1 (1969) then Philco/MSDS Skynet 2 (1974). From 23/5/63 all UK nuclear assets to be deployed in the NATO/CENTO theatres were subordinate to Allied Supreme Commanders, so why persevere with meaningless, dear, painful "independence"? Our Euro-NATO colleagues pooled their techno-workshare into NATO-1 (1970) &tc. systems. That involved digesting US technology into local workshare. Luxemburg was entitled to 1% of NATO IV, so the Ford/MSDS bid to that...placed Proposal printing there.

The money was spent, according to Geoff Pardoe for a fully fledged launcher programme we only had to spend annually the equivalent of what children spent on November 5th. .
Annual production facility for 36,000ton LOX at Woomera.
Two operational launch pads with a million pound thrust capability.
Four UK firms making space suits.
First phase 50 a year Basic Blue Streak SLV assembly line up and running.
Three large engines at different stages of development.
Re-entry solved.
At least four UK companies working on communication Satellites, Hawker Siddeley had an advanced recon satellite.
And for a lot less than what the UK spent on the Egg farming subsidy.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Der Flieger Heft 11/1961 from pages 406 - 410.

 

[Michel Van]

OMG

all Wat i wanna know about it in fact and numbers
THANKS Barrington

 

[DarkLord]

Please excuse the message, it is a plea for help! Can anyone inform where I can get pictures of blue streak - launches, handling, firing tests and factory construction. They are for a book I am writing and I am having difficulty obtain any, preferably copyright free but if I have to purchase them fair enough! I just want to locate them!!!

 

[mz]

What's with the huge pressures? 500 at = 500 bar?

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Hey DarkLord,

try this on for size:
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bstreak.htm

 

[Michel Van]

What's with the huge pressures? 500 at = 500 bar?

Förderdruck = pump pressure
and
Brennkammerdruck an der Einspritzdüse = pressure at the injectors head

Liquid-fuel rocket engine need Turbopumps to push oxidiser and fuel in combustion chamber
but for get right trust, you need certain mass of them and if the feedline are to small
the pressure as to be increase. here oxygen 522 and kerosene 517 at (528 and 523 bar)
inside combustion chamber the pressure drop fast from 369 at to 60 at were nozzle begins

 

[mz]

What's with the huge pressures? 500 at = 500 bar?

Förderdruck = pump pressure
and
Brennkammerdruck an der Einspritzdüse = pressure at the injectors head

Liquid-fuel rocket engine need Turbopumps to push oxidiser and fuel in combustion chamber
but for get right trust, you need certain mass of them and if the feedline are to small
the pressure as to be increase. here oxygen 522 and kerosene 517 at (528 and 523 bar)
inside combustion chamber the pressure drop fast from 369 at to 60 at were nozzle begins

That's just not normal. RD-180 is the most advanced and highest pressure staged combustion engine at 270 bars, and it's a seventies / eighties design.
Astronautix says that RZ.2 has 40 bars which seems more correct for the era.
Also 20 bars for the tanks seems really high in the spec sheet.

There might be a factor of ten error here, maybe they converted from kPa and made a mistake or something..

 

[Michel Van]

What's with the huge pressures? 500 at = 500 bar?

Förderdruck = pump pressure
and
Brennkammerdruck an der Einspritzdüse = pressure at the injectors head

Liquid-fuel rocket engine need Turbopumps to push oxidiser and fuel in combustion chamber
but for get right trust, you need certain mass of them and if the feedline are to small
the pressure as to be increase. here oxygen 522 and kerosene 517 at (528 and 523 bar)
inside combustion chamber the pressure drop fast from 369 at to 60 at were nozzle begins

That's just not normal. RD-180 is the most advanced and highest pressure staged combustion engine at 270 bars, and it's a seventies / eighties design.
Astronautix says that RZ.2 has 40 bars which seems more correct for the era.
Also 20 bars for the tanks seems really high in the spec sheet.

There might be a factor of ten error here, maybe they converted from kPa and made a mistake or something..

upss i forgo one thing
that's feedline from turbopump to injectors head, not from tank to turbopump !
and made one mistake
inside combustion chamber the Pressure drops fast
at injectors head its 373 bar then drops to 40 bar in center of chamber

sorry for the error

 

[mz]

I think it's a pretty constant slow velocity in the cylindrical part of the chamber, hence constant pressure. Of course the injectors have some pressure drop but that specifically states a huge chamber pressure.

 

[Spark]

I think it's a pretty constant slow velocity in the cylindrical part of the chamber, hence constant pressure. Of course the injectors have some pressure drop but that specifically states a huge chamber pressure.

Hi mz,
May I suggest 522 at. has not been converted, it may be 522 psi.
This would also explain the huge tank pressure, it should read in fact read 20.4 psi for the oxygen and 7.2 psi for the Kerosene!
Note at Spadeadam and at 6a they always had a loaded .303 just in case a valve failed.
If the tanks were at the pressures stated I would not have wanted to be the marksman!

 

[Proponent]

Note at Spadeadam and at 6a they always had a loaded .303 just in case a valve failed.

This is well OT, I realize, but how does one pronounce "Spadeadam"? Is is "SPADE-adam," "spa-DA-dum," "spa-DAY-dam," "spa-DED-am," "SPADE-um"? Or something else entirely? (if the English cities of Tocester and Beaulieu can call themselves "toaster" and "BYOO-lee," then anything is possible.)

EDIT: Tried to improve the phonetic representations

 

[Michel Van]

its pronounce: Spade-Adam

found in You tube: BBC4: BRITISH SPACE RACE
Part 1
[flash=200,200]

]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArMOyP3okI[/flash]

Part 2
[flash=200,200]

]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4okEu-RsqNw[/flash]

Part 3
[flash=200,200]

]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIcFU1m8dzk[/flash]

Part 4
[flash=200,200]

]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv0Hb43MkEg[/flash]

 

[alertken]

spark, #47: Ministers of both hues judged that eggs and/or disposable income available to taxpayer-parents' children for fireworks, took higher priority in the Nation's wealth distribution than solo-effort in "futile" space. We hitched rides, for recon. on US launchers and satellites; for military comms we joined the successive NATO projects; for commercial applications, like everybody's neverlost sat.navs, UK makes bits of buses and we ride on Ariane. Choices, priorities. The redundant shipworkers of Sunderland would have preferred that UK marine carriers bought at home; BAE Systems would prefer that BA bought more than wings at home...but they bought, as they must, from the best source.

 

[Barrington Bond]

I've been and found the date - De Havilland Gazette Number 124 August 1961.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Flight 5 August 1960.

 

[Michel Van]

from Rombus topic:

Hi,
The idea seemed brilliant and influenced others this side of the pond. There is a detailed cutaway drawing of a recoverable Blue Streak variant powered by RZ12 modified with plug nozzle / shield.

got some one picture of this...please?

 

[Spark]

from Rombus topic:

Hi,
The idea seemed brilliant and influenced others this side of the pond. There is a detailed cutaway drawing of a recoverable Blue Streak variant powered by RZ12 modified with plug nozzle / shield.

got some one picture of this...please?

Hi Michel,
So sorry, the original drawings are a part of private archived material and there are copyright issues. I had to sign to say it was for personal study use and not for publication or internet use with out prior consent, but one can draw attention to it and make references about it. At least you now have knowledge of their existences and it is something to think about.
These must have been amongst the final attempts by the engineers to get something useful out of the programme.

 

[Spark]

[/quote]

Hi,
At the end of a conversation with Charles Martin, “Mark” about the larger 16ft and 14ft diameter RAF/Military Blue Streak derived Satellite Launch Vehicles he suddenly added that we “should not forget the 15ft, for which a lot of work was done”.

This corresponded I believe to the outer payload diameter of some American Military Satellites and possibly certain UK satellites.

Sadly Mark died soon after and I was not able to pursue this interesting avenue.

What proposals were being made in the USA at that time for payload and vehicles?

Can any one help with details of UK work?

 

[Barrington Bond]

Flying Review June 1968 though it mentions the drawing is from a French publication - Space Daily?

 

[Michel Van]

THX for picture barry ;D

on 15ftø Blue Streak Rocket proposal

also a 13ftø version in begin of 1960
the first stage 3.96mø and length of 12.5m mass 160 tons
more here
source: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2946.0.html

 

[JFC Fuller]

What we actually chose to do was not expensively to duplicate, but to hitch a ride on Thor-Delta as Philco-Ford Skynet 1 (1969) then Philco/MSDS Skynet 2 (1974). From 23/5/63 all UK nuclear assets to be deployed in the NATO/CENTO theatres were subordinate to Allied Supreme Commanders, so why persevere with meaningless, dear, painful "independence"? Our Euro-NATO colleagues pooled their techno-workshare into NATO-1 (1970) &tc. systems. That involved digesting US technology into local workshare. Luxemburg was entitled to 1% of NATO IV, so the Ford/MSDS bid to that...placed Proposal printing there.

The money was spent, according to Geoff Pardoe for a fully fledged launcher programme we only had to spend annually the equivalent of what children spent on November 5th. .
Annual production facility for 36,000ton LOX at Woomera.
Two operational launch pads with a million pound thrust capability.
Four UK firms making space suits.
First phase 50 a year Basic Blue Streak SLV assembly line up and running.
Three large engines at different stages of development.
Re-entry solved.
At least four UK companies working on communication Satellites, Hawker Siddeley had an advanced recon satellite.
And for a lot less than what the UK spent on the Egg farming subsidy.

Spark,

Which firms were making space suits and what was the third large engine you refer to? I assume that one is the RZ.12 and the other is the Bristol Siddely Delta series?

 

[Spark]

What we actually chose to do was not expensively to duplicate, but to hitch a ride on Thor-Delta as Philco-Ford Skynet 1 (1969) then Philco/MSDS Skynet 2 (1974). From 23/5/63 all UK nuclear assets to be deployed in the NATO/CENTO theatres were subordinate to Allied Supreme Commanders, so why persevere with meaningless, dear, painful "independence"? Our Euro-NATO colleagues pooled their techno-workshare into NATO-1 (1970) &tc. systems. That involved digesting US technology into local workshare. Luxemburg was entitled to 1% of NATO IV, so the Ford/MSDS bid to that...placed Proposal printing there.

The money was spent, according to Geoff Pardoe for a fully fledged launcher programme we only had to spend annually the equivalent of what children spent on November 5th. .
Annual production facility for 36,000ton LOX at Woomera.
Two operational launch pads with a million pound thrust capability.
Four UK firms making space suits.
First phase 50 a year Basic Blue Streak SLV assembly line up and running.
Three large engines at different stages of development.
Re-entry solved.
At least four UK companies working on communication Satellites, Hawker Siddeley had an advanced recon satellite.
And for a lot less than what the UK spent on the Egg farming subsidy.

Spark,

Which firms were making space suits and what was the third large engine you refer to? I assume that one is the RZ.12 and the other is the Bristol Siddely Delta series?

Hi Sealordlawrence,

The four companies were,
Siebe Gorman,
Frankenstein,
Windak, (consortium)
Normalair, hardsuit,

Normalair were also working on backpack LOX life support.

The second engine RZ13, and third engine was the RZ14 a very advanced single engine with direct drive pumps to replace two RZ2
Total mass saving for RZ14 compared to the RZ12 was equivalent to removing an original Mini, every thing else staying the same!

The Delta 3 work was continuing at RPE Westcott with work on the chamber injectors until 1966
But other D3 work had ceased by about 1958

 

[royabulgaf]

Was Frankenstein to supply the astronauts? ;D

 

[Michel Van]

Was Frankenstein to supply the astronauts? ;D

nice joke
Frankenstein and Son made Spacesuit for RAF later for Stanley Kubrick 2001 space Odyssey

 

[JFC Fuller]

Have you guys thought about producing a book? You have clearly accumulated a vast amount of knowledge on this fascinating subject and, at least to my knowledge, there is currently no document in existence that combines all this?

Thanks for the information!

 

[JFC Fuller]

Sorry, yet another question!

Would the mounting of Black Arrow on top of Blue Streak have created a 4 stage rocket or would one of the stages have been abandoned leaving the entire ensemble?

Also I know that the Larch rocket was being worked on to replace the gamma engines in Black Arrow for a so called Black Arrow Mark 2, would this have had any changes to the dimensions of Black Arrow or would it have remained compatible with Blue Streak? Were the Gamma's in both stages to be replaced with the Larch or just one?

A picture: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10326551&wwwflag=2&imagepos=9

It strikes me that an RZ-14 powered Blue Streak first stage with a Larch powered Black Arrow mounted on top would have made for an impressive vehicle???

 

[JFC Fuller]

An added detail that my googling has found: http://www.gkllc.com/lit/gk-authored/AIAA-2005-4455_Hydrogen_Peroxide_Catalyst_Beds_are_Ligher_than_Liquid_Injectors.pdf

Apparently the Larch was a H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) rocket like the Gamma's used on the original Black Arrow. The National Archives look to have quite a lot of stuff about British rocket engines, I am hoping to be able to get there at some point.

I am trying to place where the SARO SLAVE fits in, it seems odd that this proposal has had so much attention yet there was also clearly a lot of work done on the Larch motor which would have been a more modern unit (I assume), is the case that the SLAVE was a private proposal whilst official development would have pursued a MkII Black Arrow with the Larch motor?

I am also trying to understand the Black Arrow Blue Streak relationship, there seems to be some confusion around this. Some sources state that the Black Arrow would simply have been mounted on top of a Blue Steak whilst others suggest that the Black Arrow 1st stage would be eliminated and the second stage extended to produce a three stage rocket, or were both ideas put forward?

 

[Michel Van]

Sorry, yet another question!

Would the mounting of Black Arrow on top of Blue Streak have created a 4 stage rocket or would one of the stages have been abandoned leaving the entire ensemble?

It almost happent !
one was during ELDO Europa-1 had Problems with second stage Corallie
there was proposal to replace Corallie with Black Arrow first stage

i think there was a B.I.S. proposal with Blue Streak with Black Arrow on top

 

[JFC Fuller]

There seems to have been multiple options to turn Blue Streak into a multi stage launcher. In addition to the Black Knight proposals that started this thread (Black Prince) and any improvements that may have come about to Black Arrow (Larch or Stentor motors as in SLAVE) there was also the Liquid Hydrogen work that RR performed to produce the RZ.20 that was designed as part of the ELDO programme to power the upper stages.

I would love to know more about the Larch motor though, was it just a development of the Gamma or was it something more substantial like the Stentor?

 

[Spark]

There seems to have been multiple options to turn Blue Streak into a multi stage launcher. In addition to the Black Knight proposals that started this thread (Black Prince) and any improvements that may have come about to Black Arrow (Larch or Stentor motors as in SLAVE) there was also the Liquid Hydrogen work that RR performed to produce the RZ.20 that was designed as part of the ELDO programme to power the upper stages.

I would love to know more about the Larch motor though, was it just a development of the Gamma or was it something more substantial like the Stentor?

Sealordlawrence,
I have not forgotten, have just talked on the phone with one of the topmen on the original Larch design team. A lot to think off.
A Gamma super update because of political considerations instead of a new engine but it would have doubled the payload.
Radically different and they could have produced a super new big engine given the political will.
Have found some papers that I have been looking for but will take more time to sort it out.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Spark,

I did a search of the national archives online catalogue and the Larch does come up in reference to the Gamma chamber. According to the Science Museum Black Arrow book the Larch made 7,500lb thrust which does not seem especially impressive compared to what the Gamma 8 chambers were making. I am looking forward to seeing what you have found out!

It is a real shame that the Science Museum has not produced a detailed space and rocketry book like they did with 'Hot War Cold Science' which is an exceptional work. To my knowledge nothing like that has been produced yet there is clearly a lot to be written about.

 

[JFC Fuller]

I apologise if it has been posted here (I suspect that it has!!!) already but reading the Science Museum Black Arrow Book an interesting note came up. Apparently the Black Knight variant intended to sit on top of Black Prince would have been expanded to 54 inches. So I guess that rather than being a basic Black Knight variant the actual Black Prince proposal would have used the Saunders Roe L.O.V.E.R with the Kestrel as the third stage and the Gamma 304, which laid the foundations for the Gamma 8 of Black Arrow, as the second stage to the Blue Streak first stage.

Now I make the assumption that DeHavilland Propellers and Saunders Roe worked together closely for all the Blue Streak/Black Knight combos. In which case is it the case that the vehicle shown in the first post of this thread (which appears to be based on the 36 inch Black Knight) is an immediate predecessor to Black Prince with the L.O.V.E.R as the two upper stages?

However, L.O.V.E.R likely never had anything to do with Black Prince, instead...

...Black Prince actually seems to replace the Kestrel with the PR.38, and we also have what is essentially the upper two stages of Black Prince bolted onto a PR.27 (4 Stentor Chambers) first stage to produce the Bristol Siddeley Small Satellite Launch Vehicle that was proposed as a more capable Black Arrow alternative.