Blue Streak based satellite transport system

[Jemiba]

In 1959 G.K.C.Pardoe, Chief Coordinator/balistic missiles at DeHavilland Propellers Ltd.
made several proposals to use the Blue Streak as the basis for a sattelite transport
system.
- The first shown would combine the Blue Streak with a solid propellant second stage,
where the payload would have been carried in two canisters besides the rocket motors.
- The second proposal should use the Saunders Roe Black Knight as second stage,
usable volume is given as 950 dm³
- In the third proposal a modified Black Knight should be used, which would have traded
length for diameter. The modified arrangement is shown below, usable volume would have
been 1515 dm³. The unmodified 2nd stage is just shown for comparison.
All proposals were aimed at obtaining a sattelite transport system with "Off-The -Shelf"
components, quickly and relatively cheap.
(From Interavia 12/1959

 

[Jos Heyman]

I believe the development with the Black Knight as an upper stage was also referred to as Black Prince.

 

[Michel Van]

the BS with solid fuel second stage is new to me !

Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
the BS with Black Knight is from 1957

De Havilland/British Interplanetary Society proposal
in 1959 came the proposal to rebuild the BK into a 10 foot diameter sphere.
But the development costs proved to be too high for the limited budget of the programme.

Saunders Roe proposals
1959 the Black Prince a Three stage rocket, BS and new stage with BK technology
the Black Prince would be a Commonwealth project. but no interests by them

1960 French Anglo Proposal
the french proposed to used the Emeraude as second stage
This became Later ELDO-A Program

1972
Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
to use the US-Centaur upperstage for Blue Streak
and French Diamant B (L-17) as Stamp on booster

Saunders Roe SLAVE
a Blue streak with a stretched version of the second stage used on the Black Arrow rocket,
with third stage of Solid fuel

 

[Spark]

the BS with solid fuel second stage is new to me !

Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
the BS with Black Knight is from 1957

De Havilland/British Interplanetary Society proposal
in 1959 came the proposal to rebuild the BK into a 10 foot diameter sphere.
But the development costs proved to be too high for the limited budget of the programme.

Saunders Roe proposals
1959 the Black Prince a Three stage rocket, BS and new stage with BK technology
the Black Prince would be a Commonwealth project. but no interests by them

1960 French Anglo Proposal
the french proposed to used the Emeraude as second stage
This became Later ELDO-A Program

1972
Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
to use the US-Centaur upperstage for Blue Streak
and French Diamant B (L-17) as Stamp on booster

Saunders Roe SLAVE
a Blue streak with a stretched version of the second stage used on the Black Arrow rocket,
with third stage of Solid fuel

On the subject of Blue Streak-
There is not a single site on the web nor any recent publication that gives an accurate technical description of the Blue Streak missile or its history. The fact that it always had a duality of purpose both as a missile and as a basis for a family of boosters is ignored. Nor is the fact there was also an alternative UK programme. Or have I missed something?

 

[Michel Van]

have I missed something?

http://www.spaceuk.org/index.htm
simply the best about Uk Space Programm in web

 

[hole in the ground]

agreed!
it is also a good reference for the Saunders Roe rocket fighters. Does miss out some of the information from the book though (a vertical empire).

 

[Spark]

the BS with solid fuel second stage is new to me !

Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
the BS with Black Knight is from 1957

De Havilland/British Interplanetary Society proposal
in 1959 came the proposal to rebuild the BK into a 10 foot diameter sphere.
But the development costs proved to be too high for the limited budget of the programme.

Saunders Roe proposals
1959 the Black Prince a Three stage rocket, BS and new stage with BK technology
the Black Prince would be a Commonwealth project. but no interests by them

1960 French Anglo Proposal
the french proposed to used the Emeraude as second stage
This became Later ELDO-A Program

1972
Royal Aircraft Establishment proposals
to use the US-Centaur upperstage for Blue Streak
and French Diamant B (L-17) as Stamp on booster

Saunders Roe SLAVE
a Blue streak with a stretched version of the second stage used on the Black Arrow rocket,
with third stage of Solid fuel

Hi Michel

De Havilland/British Interplanetary Society proposal
in 1959 came the proposal to rebuild the BK into a 10 foot diameter sphere.
But the development costs proved to be too high for the limited budget of the programme.

Hard to believe it was fifty years ago!
Cost was no problem, politics was. Blue Streak missile round excluding weapon was only £500,000 from restricted ministry document 1959 (weapon £2,500,000). Cost of B-S Booster 1960 was £250,000 estimate by Pardoe, simpler guidance less cost. The production line was built to produce FIFTY units annually, one per working week and had already started production. number eleven was to be the first for the RAF Booster flight trials. Production cost of extra stage estimate £30 maximum per pound weight. The launch pads test facilities had already been built to cater for BIG military boosters and the first one was complete. About 95% of the work needed had been completed. Only an additional 5% needed spending to launch first civil satellite.

 

[OM]

I believe the development with the Black Knight as an upper stage was also referred to as Black Prince.

...And a revised version would be "The Upper Stage Formerly Referred To As Black Prince"

 

[Barrington Bond]

Spark,

where did you glean your information from please?

Regards,
Barry

 

[Spark]

Spark,

where did you glean your information from please?

Regards,
Barry

Hi OM and Barry,

Glean is a good description. Archives private and public, most important People- sadly most are now dead. I have a good memory and a fifty year plus interest and a passion for the truth.

Cost of the upper stages based on a variety of estimates made at the time and the opinions of some key people.

Fifty a year Blue Streak production figure told by one of the top RR rocketmen, it was the MoS original requirement.

The production line was dual purpose , missile roun and Military Booster

And a lot of luck.

 

[fredgell]

One per week.....interesting indeed.

You might like to look at an article at
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/rocketaday.html

re ideas for frequent launch economics.

50 years ago we seemed to be so much more capable than today.

Regards

Fred

 

[Spark]

One per week.....interesting indeed.

You might like to look at an article at
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/rocketaday.html

re ideas for frequent launch economics.

50 years ago we seemed to be so much more capable than today.

Regards

Fred

Hi Fred,

Thanks, Interesting thought. Val Cleaver was not certain what would prove to be to be the best option but the UK had a driver in the form of the ”Geographical Imperative” that is RAF operational flights/launches from the UK would require a recoverable first stage. Hardware dropping on friends in Europe was not thought a good diplomatic move. There was a team looking at a recoverable BS in the fifties.

Fifty was not a lot in the context of the time one could imagine that many just for reconnaissance satellites. That’s with out those needed for the communication/relay net required for TSR2 or practise rounds.

Note the basic RAF Military Booster based on Blue Streak Missile would have been more advanced and technically superior to the civil variant used by ELDO. Cheaper with bigger payload

 

[Barrington Bond]

Fred,

thanks for sharing - please regale us with more snippets ;D

Regards,
Barry

 

[DarkLord]

There is a book, written by Charles H. Martin; and published by the British Interplanetary Society, called De Havilland Blue Streak. It has an incredible ammount of inside information, from one of the design team of De Havilland. Mr. Martin went on to become the Assistant Chief Engineer of British Aerospace Space and Communications Division.

The book also looks at the politics that "killed" the Blue Streak. American disapproval and British Goverment apathy robbed this country of a place in the forefront of space. Had the Blue Streak become a true space launcher we would now be reaping a large slice of the lucrative space market. It was thought that the engines could have been uprated to 200,000/250,000 lbs thrust for the multi stage versions. There were paper proposals for the addition of solid boosters (Titan 3 style) and of a tandem launcher using 3 Blue Streaks. There was also discussion of an expanded diameter (4 metre), 4 engine version with lox/lh2 upper stages that would have been in the Saturn 1B/ Titan 3 class. As far as I know this did not even reach the drawing stage, just sketches and discussions.
Here is the ISBN number, although the book may be out of print!
ISBN0 - 9506597 - 6 - 2

 

[Michel Van]

There were paper proposals for the addition of solid boosters (Titan 3 style) and of a tandem launcher using 3 Blue Streaks. There was also discussion of an expanded diameter (4 metre), 4 engine version with lox/lh2 upper stages that would have been in the Saturn 1B/ Titan 3 class. As far as I know this did not even reach the drawing stage, just sketches and discussions.

this are all ELDO Europa rocket study

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37077.html#msg37077
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37131.html#msg37131
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37131.html#msg37131
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37578.html#msg37578
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37914.html#msg37914

the ISBN nummer is false
under 0-9506597-6-2 at Amazon you get this: "The International Space Station: From Imagination to Reality"

 

[fredgell]

Picture here sort of says it all...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/05/2265742.htm


Fred

 

[Rickshaw]

Picture here sort of says it all...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/05/2265742.htm


Fred

I remember in primary school listening to the Blue Streak tests being transmitted live on ABC radio.

 

[Spark]

There is a book, written by Charles H. Martin; and published by the British Interplanetary Society, called De Havilland Blue Streak. It has an incredible ammount of inside information, from one of the design team of De Havilland. Mr. Martin went on to become the Assistant Chief Engineer of British Aerospace Space and Communications Division.

The book also looks at the politics that "killed" the Blue Streak. American disapproval and British Goverment apathy robbed this country of a place in the forefront of space. Had the Blue Streak become a true space launcher we would now be reaping a large slice of the lucrative space market. It was thought that the engines could have been uprated to 200,000/250,000 lbs thrust for the multi stage versions. There were paper proposals for the addition of solid boosters (Titan 3 style) and of a tandem launcher using 3 Blue Streaks. There was also discussion of an expanded diameter (4 metre), 4 engine version with lox/lh2 upper stages that would have been in the Saturn 1B/ Titan 3 class. As far as I know this did not even reach the drawing stage, just sketches and discussions.
Here is the ISBN number, although the book may be out of print!
ISBN0 - 9506597 - 6 - 2

Charles H. Martin told me in addition to the 14ft and 16ft diameter models that a LOT of work was done on a Fifteen foot diameter variant, type, number of engines not known.

The 13 ft simply did not fit the programme and that does puzzle me as to its origins?

 

[DarkLord]

The ISBN number is the one inside the book on page ii, so somewhere things are wrong!! Answering another point, I agree that there was a lot o work done on a larger Blue Streak. In the Pyramid/ Launcher section I have just posted remarks about a model that belonged to one of my RAF lecturers. He was involved with the Blue Streak from the RAF side before he became an engineering lecturer. The model was of an expanded Blue Streak with 4 engines. At the scale of 1/96 or 1/100 that it was, it would have been about 4.5 to 5 metres in diameter. It was in the same scale as the Blue Streak/Silo model and looked about 50% larger in diameter.

I was fortunate to actually inspect a Blue Streak in the "flesh" as a fresh faced RAF apprentice on a factory visit. It left a deep impression that still excites me to this day. The smell of the new metal and "machinery" was memorable. The Blue Streak as a Military Weapon had been cancelled by this time, but we had high hopes of a Space career. Such is life!!!

 

[DarkLord]

I just checke dwith the BIS, there were 2 books printed with the same ISBN number. My copy should have had a sticker over it. The number is 0 950 6597 7 0. Not my fault!!!

 

[Barrington Bond]

Came across this in an RAE report on wind tunnel testing...

;D

 

[Michel Van]

There is a book, written by Charles H. Martin; and published by the British Interplanetary Society, called De Havilland Blue Streak.
Here is the ISBN number, although the book may be out of print! ISBN0 - 9506597 - 6 - 2

the Right ISBN is ISBN-10: 0950659770 and ISBN-13: 978-0950659770

the book is on B.I.S Homepage still on Sale
(scroll down to end of the page)
http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/sitesia.aspx/page/128/Node/108/l/de-de

here another piece of Blue Streak at Giles Weather Station
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1074030886042058372wEljXf

thanks for scann Barrington
the MRBM version of BS on Display in in National Space Centre, Leicester
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1048483221014897999lEfxDt

The model was of an expanded Blue Streak with 4 engines.
At the scale of 1/96 or 1/100 that it was, it would have been about 4.5 to 5 metres in diameter.
It was in the same scale as the Blue Streak/Silo model and looked about 50% larger in diameter.

that must be a 16 ft diameter ( 4,8768 meters ) version

 

[PMN1]

C N Hill's 'Vertical Empire' notes that in 1955, the RAE conducted a study into reconnaissance satellites.

Does anyone know what the results were of that study?

 

[Spark]

C N Hill's 'Vertical Empire' notes that in 1955, the RAE conducted a study into reconnaissance satellites.

Does anyone know what the results were of that study?

Hi PMN1
This was not the first study but possibly the first for a cheaper automatic “robotic” satellite system. I understood that it was concluded that one draw back was that Wire Recorders could not cope with recording the quantity of data needed for re-transmission over friendly territory. The Electronics was still to clumsy and unreliable at that time, they still needed men in orbit or possibly in sub-orbital to operate a simpler photographic system
NOTE fifty western bloc aircraft had already been lost over the eastern bloc between 1945 and 1955.

 

[Michel Van]

Hi PMN1
This was not the first study but possibly the first for a cheaper automatic “robotic” satellite system. I understood that it was concluded that one draw back was that Wire Recorders could not cope with recording the quantity of data needed for re-transmission over friendly territory. The Electronics was still to clumsy and unreliable at that time, they still needed men in orbit or possibly in sub-orbital to operate a simpler photographic system
NOTE fifty western bloc aircraft had already been lost over the eastern bloc between 1945 and 1955.

like famous 1960 U-2 incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-2_Affair
another problem was that automatic cameras took picture, with only cloud cover to see.

so in begin 1960's the need for manned spy spacecraft was real
so they start program like Dyna-Soar or MOL and TKS-ALMAZ project

Dyna-Soar was victim of Robert McNamara
MOL was victim of change of technology in end of 1960's
TKS-ALMAZ mutate into Soyuz-Salut

so Wat had RAF in mind ?, A Big MOL like spacecraft or Waverider ?

 

[Michel Van]

i found some Videos on Blue Streak
on British pathe B)

Blue Streak pact in for Australia
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=43465
unused footage on cargo ship of that Video
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=63154

Blue Streak test launch 1964
"they gona launch in 2 years (1966) a Italian satellite in to space"
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=43301
blue Streak test launch 1965
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=40898
ELDO ROCKET LAUNCHED 1966 (sorry only mute)
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=71453
unused footage of that launch
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=71944

"Rockets Galore - but no fish and chips". (Woomera in 1962)
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=69412

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

I believe the development with the Black Knight as an upper stage was also referred to as Black Prince.

...And a revised version would be "The Upper Stage Formerly Referred To As Black Prince"

OT: I wouldn't be surprised if there was a weapon or system in UK with the code name "Purple Rain".

 

[Michel Van]

OT: I wouldn't be surprised if there was a weapon or system in UK with the code name "Purple Rain".

Unfortunately not, they had only
Purple Granite- Two-stage H-bomb.
Purple Passion- Sub-kiloton demolition mine project.

more on Rainbow code here
http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/start.htm

 

[Barrington Bond]

From the De Havilland Gazette somewhere between '57 - '62. Any ideas which version this is?

 

[OM]

OT: I wouldn't be surprised if there was a weapon or system in UK with the code name "Purple Rain".

...Either way, they were clearly Purple People Eaters ;D ;D ;D

 

[Michel Van]

From the De Havilland Gazette somewhere between '57 - '62. Any ideas which version this is?

i thought first Blue Prince, Wat design in same the years
but the configuration is diverent from Blue Prince !

 

[Barrington Bond]

Only other clue I have at moment is that it was at Paris airshow.

Regards,
Barry

 

[Michel Van]

goddam my memory is failing...
again the picture

and look Wat i found on Left

that First version of ELDO-A begin 1960s
Blue streak / french stage / British H2o2/kerosene third stage
found here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg60861.html#msg60861

 

[Spark]

[/quote]

Hi Michel
Is the Blue Streak SLV model for the same vehicle shown Re Barrington Bond Early european rocketery projects#86 July that me thinks has to be for the RAF military SLV?
What do you think?

 

[Spark]

just curious any thoughts as to which one would represent a possible Blue Streak military SLV? i have made a baseline model of the standard IRBM. launcher and currently working on the as flown Europa SLV. a projected military satellite launcher would make for an interesting model for display, especially with the mention of TSR.2 in connection with the unit

many thanks, Joe Cherrie

Hi TsrJoe
The model in the Michel Van Photograph.
Number eleven from the production line was to to have been the first in a series of trials vehicles for the definite SLV and this seems to fit the time frame.

 

[Michel Van]

Hi Michel
Is the Blue Streak SLV model for the same vehicle shown Re Barrington Bond Early european rocketery projects#86 July that me thinks has to be for the RAF military SLV?
What do you think?
[/quote]
here picture from Reply #86 on that topic

the RAF needed a SLV to launch TSR.2 Comsat or Spysat
and Blue Streak is Wat they had in 1960s

the problem is, that difficult to get more information from Royal Air Force
Wat type of SLV they wanted
Blue Prince or a bigger rocket with hydrogene & oxygen upperstage ?
Certainly the last option.

so were back on Reply #32 on this topic
that RAF SLV could be this rocket on far right

 

[Barrington Bond]

Air Revue Dec 1961

 

[PMN1]

OK, so we've seen proposals for Blue Streak attached the Blue Steak in a CCB arrangement but what are the possibilities of 2, 3 or 4 Blue Steak attached to a larger diameter core stage?

 

[starviking]

From the De Havilland Gazette somewhere between '57 - '62. Any ideas which version this is?

I think you'll have to push the timeline a bit forward - Hawker Siddeley Aviation Ltd., the company emblasoned on the display was only formed in mid-1963 - so it's just right for the Paris show of that year.

 

[Michel Van]

Air Revue Dec 1961

OMG that's the earliest Picture of ELDO-A !

interesting is that the French stage had to use N2O2 and UDMH
while the liquid fuel french big rocket, the VE 121 Émeraude (first fly in 1964)
had to used Turpentine and Nitric acid as Propellants !
around 1960 the French made the proposal to use a VE 121 Émeraude rocket as second stage
only one year after de Gaulle gave SEREB the order for development and build Émeraude

on 27 Nov 1966 the first French N2O2 and UDMH rocket CORA takes of

as source give Air Revue
the German magazine "Der Flieger"
got someone that edition ?