AAAdrone said:it might have been a good MiGCAP or TARCAP fighter for Vietnam. With its performance characteristics it would be unstoppable.
marcd30319 said:I would say the biggest mistake was the cancellation of the U.S. Navy's A-12 attack bomber because of its long-range, all-weather, stealth capabilities which our carriers haven't had since the retirement of the A-6 Intruder. The F/A-18F Super Hornet is good, but it is inferior to the A-12. The F-35 had stealth, but it lack the range of the A-12 and not optimized as a bombing platform.
famvburg said:The A-6 had stealth capabilities?
marcd30319 said:I would say the biggest mistake was the cancellation of the U.S. Navy's A-12 attack bomber because of its long-range, all-weather, stealth capabilities which our carriers haven't had since the retirement of the A-6 Intruder. The F/A-18F Super Hornet is good, but it is inferior to the A-12. The F-35 had stealth, but it lack the range of the A-12 and not optimized as a bombing platform.
uk 75 said:I am not sure if this is the right place for this.
The Royal Navy wanted a postwar fighter that could be crossdecked with the the US Navy.
As we all know it tried desperately to get the F4 Phantom to sea on its mixed set of CVs.
If McDonnell Douglas had made the Phantom able to fit RN carriers and US Essexes from the off,
or made it a slightly different design. The US could have kept more cvs in service, the RN would have kept its fixed wing air. Who knows, the Canadians, Australians and Dutch might also have deployed Essex class ships with this plane.
uk 75 said:If McDonnell Douglas had made the Phantom able to fit RN carriers and US Essexes from the off,
or made it a slightly different design. The US could have kept more cvs in service, the RN would have kept its fixed wing air. Who knows, the Canadians, Australians and Dutch might also have deployed Essex class ships with this plane.
AAAdrone said:I'm sure what was meant was that the A-12 was the only possible solution that had the range and payload capacity to replace the A-6. I agree with him as the F-35 just doesn't have the mission radius, range, and payload to perfectly fill the shoes the A-12 was supposed to fill. That, and canceling it was unnecessary. They could have gone to a different contractor to work the issues out.
I don't know about this simplistic outlook!That, and cancelling it was unecessary. They could have gone to a different contractor to work the issues out.
Pioneer said:To this day I do not get the USN's obsession with the F/A-18E/F/G series
Abraham Gubler said:The issue here is that the Phantom as built was fine for flying from an Essex class carrier but not a RN fleet carrier. The later were appreciably slower than the Essex class which made operating USN aircraft from them difficult. Which is why the RN played much closer attention to lower stall speeds and higher angles of attack on takeoff than the USN did.
The same problem as resurfaced today with the RN’s plan to acquire F-35Cs. These aircraft are designed to fly from a carrier that can make over 30 knots for launch and recover evolutions while the CVF maxes out at 27 knots.
This issue has nothing to do with sustaining carrier operations in other navies. The RAN actually requested an Essex class with Phantoms in the 1960s but were knocked back by the Government because of cost. Nothing to do with an assessment that the Phantom couldn’t fly from the Essex. The Dutch decommissioned their carrier force after Kennedy forced them to hand over West Papua to the Indonesians. Without West Papua to defend the Dutch navy no longer needed a carrier. The Canadians abolished their carrier after amalgamating their forces and the unification of former RCAF and RCN ASW air wings.
Abraham Gubler said:Pioneer said:To this day I do not get the USN's obsession with the F/A-18E/F/G series
Its cheap, it works and it does all their missions.
pathology_doc said:AAAdrone said:it might have been a good MiGCAP or TARCAP fighter for Vietnam. With its performance characteristics it would be unstoppable.
And I suspect the F-4's score might have been much higher (and its air-combat loss rate lower) if it could have stood back and used Sparrow the way it was supposed to be used, as a BVR weapon. Expecting the F-12 to operate in a visual-range-only environment when it has next to no dogfight capability just doesn't make sense; and if you change the rules to suit, the F-4 will suddenly find itself operating far more within its original design parameters and you probably don't need a Mach 3 fighter. Besides, the F-4 offers up to six BVR pulls of the trigger if you swap the wing-mounted Sidewinders out and put Sparrows on. The F-12 had... what, three AIM-47s? And unless you can assure me of one-shot one-kill, the F-4 is probably the better bargain all round.
As a Continental air-defence interceptor against high-level supersonic bombers? No argument, the F-12B wins for me hands-down.
AAAdrone said:I'm sure what was meant was that the A-12 was the only possible solution that had the range and payload capacity to replace the A-6. I agree with him as the F-35 just doesn't have the mission radius, range, and payload to perfectly fill the shoes the A-12 was supposed to fill. That, and canceling it was unnecessary. They could have gone to a different contractor to work the issues out.
Pioneer said:Have we mentioned the Grumman A-6F Intruder?
This would have offered a capability the USN still lacks to this day (even after the A-12 Avenger II cancellation decision)
The F/A-18E/F still lacks the A-6F's range and offensive payload capability
Regards
Pioneer
AAAdrone said:I'm pretty sure my choices have all been said several times before but here are my $0.02
The Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III: It was single purposed and had only one crew member which gave it a large workload per crew member but it was more capable in the interceptor role than anything else. It had a track while scan capable radar AFAIK and considering it ate Phantoms for breakfast I consider it a waste how the US simply scrapped the thing without finding some role for it to fill.
F-23: Needs no introduction. An incredible aircraft and with a well upgraded and perfected F-120 engine along with the improved weapons bay demonstrated in the EMD images this fighter would have been amazing for the USAF if a lot riskier in design.
AAAdrone said:I completely forgot about how the F-12B was "canceled." Thanks for the correction F-14D. Still, if only McNamoron wasn't SecDef, then the F-12B wouldn't have been "canceled" at a whopping 3 airframes. If, say 200 were built, the unit cost would drop and Lockheed's industrial base would have been more adapted to building and maintaining these wonderful fighters. It may have not have been as necessary in hindsight but something like that was bound to insight fear into the Russians!
Also on the XF8U-3, if Congress weren't idiots, then wouldn't it have been easier for the Navy to just have both fighters? It would have made the Navy's lives so much better in Vietnam when they actually had an interceptor that even the VPAF MiG-21 could not dare stand against without incurring heavy losses. Maybe the air force could have gotten a version without the variable incidence wing and other sorts of weight reduction features if the DoD and Congress were so hell-bent on saving money. I know the USAF weren't going to like it but with something that had the sustained-turn performance of the Crusader III as well as the effective speed and other kinematic capabilities, the Crusader III may just be what the doctor ordered for the USAF's air supremacy needs alongside the F-12B.
Also, thanks for the recommendation on XF8U-3 literature. I'll see if I can get my hands on that ASAP.
sealordlawrence said:Could you provide some sources for this? Eagle and Ark Royal were both quoted with top speeds of 31.5-32knots, HMS Victorious post-reconstruction was also reported as being capable of 31 knots. The SCB-27 conversion to the Essex class took their speed down to 31 knots. In reality the two (three including the Victorious) classes, following their post-war conversions, made approximately the same maximum speed. The only area where there was an appreciable difference that I can see is in the Centaur class (including Hermes) which *only* made 28 knots.
sealordlawrence said:Indeed, the Essex class seem to have had similar issues to the Audacious class, whilst they were technically big enough to operate a Phantom (and one of the design requirements for the type was that the length be under 59ft so it would fit an Essex class elevator) they were less than ideal and the Phantom (along with the A6) was never actually deployed on an Essex class as part of its air wing although trials launches/landings were undertaken.
F-14D said:The F-8's best of the war win/loss ratio can probably be most attributed to the fact that F-4 while crews trained for air-to-air, they also had to train and practice for air-to-ground, deep penetration, nuclear strike, etc. F-8 crews for most of the war overwhelmingly trained for and practiced air-to-air and not much else. A similar situation exists today with the F-15C and theoretically the F-22.
Abraham Gubler said:F-14D said:The F-8's best of the war win/loss ratio can probably be most attributed to the fact that F-4 while crews trained for air-to-air, they also had to train and practice for air-to-ground, deep penetration, nuclear strike, etc. F-8 crews for most of the war overwhelmingly trained for and practiced air-to-air and not much else. A similar situation exists today with the F-15C and theoretically the F-22.
Can’t say I agree with this. There are plenty fighter forces that are trained for both air to air and air to ground (Israel, Royal Navy) that have performed excellently and even thumped those all air to air trained F-15 pilots in exercises. But what is important is what type of tactics they use. The US Navy Phantom pilots before VietNam spent a lot of time training to shoot down Soviet bombers attacking the fleet in BADGERS and the like. The F-4 weapon system (Sparrow) was designed for this role. All that time and effort invested into mastering a highly complex SARH system that was of little use for them. Meanwhile the Crusader pilots when training for bomber interception were skilled in getting on their tail for a Sidewinder kill which was more than applicable for taking on VPAF fighters. After Top Gun the US Navy were heads and shoulders above USAF in tactics and even when flying very similar aircraft in similar situations (LINEBACKER escorts) outperformed them.
zen said:Centaurs did have speed issues using their catapults, Hermes went down below 25kts deep and dirty using hers. But I'm not aware of such a signifcant drop for the Audacious class or Victorious. So can we have a source for this?
Abraham Gubler said:In ideal conditions the most HMS Ark Royal in her Phantom commission could make with catapults in operations was 29 knots for only 15 minutes. CVA-01 was designed for 25 knots with catapults charged. There was a reason the RN was looking for aircraft in the 1960s with far lower minimum launch speeds than the USN.
Tailspin Turtle said:Hence the greater F-4K nose gear extension for launch...
Abraham Gubler said:The British fleet carriers could not sustain their maximum speed with catapults in operation. I think maximum speed with both catapults was as low as 25 knots in some hot environments. Add to that the lower power of even the BS-5A catapult on the Phantom commission of the Ark Royal and you have a significant difference. This catapult could only provide a launch speed of 95 knots for a 60,000 pound aircraft (fully loaded Phantom) compared to 115 knots from the C-11 catapults fitted to a SCB-27 Essex class (Oriskany’s C-11-1s were even better). This is where you start to get a 25 knot WOD difference. And the reason why the Royal Navy was specifying aircraft with much lower stall speeds than the Royal Navy which culminated in the Spey Phantom. Even the BS-6 planned for CVA-01 would only slightly improve on the C-11 catapult’s performance and the lower speeds would be continued thanks to cost cutting. While the US Navy was moving
dan_inbox said:It failed the Aéronavale's carrier trials. One-engine-out handling was unacceptable, among other things.Caravellarella said:SEPECAT Jaguar M - looks fabulous (why didn't this enter service? I don't know)......
Sentinel Chicken said:I always thought Sukhoi's single-engined multirole S-37 canard fighter would have been very promising and at the least given the Russian Air Forces an affordable and flexible multirole fighter that might well have been a great export success as well.
I though they were to have some kind of new maneuver flap?elmayerle said:I'm going to say that one major mistake on Northrop's part was not putting a bigger wing on the F-20 from the get-go. While the existing wing has the advantage of being very similar to that of the F-5E/F, it also makes for a very high wing loading which requires a fair rate of speed in turns; leading to the G-LOC problems that lost 3 F-20s and probably doomed the program.