Bell AH-1 Cobra

Probably civilian (fire fighting or ex US Forest service):

iu



iu
 
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I suspect if Slovakia is wanting to avoid agitation with Russia, they will continue to vacillate on the AH-1Z procurement, to preclude them becoming available to Ukraine.
Not familiar enough with the politics in Slovakia to make an assumption like that. Really a guess as someone with international relations experience. No rants please.
 
yasotay said:
I suspect if Slovakia is wanting to avoid agitation with Russia, they will continue to vacillate on the AH-1Z procurement, to preclude them becoming available to Ukraine.
Not familiar enough with the politics in Slovakia to make an assumption like that. Really a guess as someone with international relations experience. No rants please.
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Slovakia's government has done a fairly hard pro-Russia pivot in the last couple of years. First with the reelection of PM Robert Fico in 2023 on a platform to stop military aid to Ukraine and then earlier this year with the election of a pro-Russian president.
 
TomS said:
Slovakia's government has done a fairly hard pro-Russia pivot in the last couple of years. First with the reelection of PM Robert Fico in 2023 on a platform to stop military aid to Ukraine and then earlier this year with the election of a pro-Russian president.
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Slovakia might want to reconsider its pro-Russian attitude before it gets suspended from the EU and NATO now as for the AH-1Z that would seem to me to be a good choice for an inexpensive attack-helicopter (The AH-64 while much more capable than the AH-1Z is also a great deal more expensive IIRC).
 
NMaude said:
Slovakia might want to reconsider its pro-Russian attitude before it gets suspended from the EU and NATO now as for the AH-1Z that would seem to me to be a good choice for an inexpensive attack-helicopter (The AH-64 while much more capable than the AH-1Z is also a great deal more expensive IIRC).
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No, new build AH1Zs are nearly on the order of 30mil each.
 
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Slovakia decided at the last moment they would rather spend the money on their fast jet fleet instead of the AH-1Z so now Ukraine is eyeing the ones that were destined for them.

theaviationist.com

Ukraine Pushes for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters Rejected by Slovakia

Vadym Ivchenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliamentary Committee on National Security said Ukraine needs the AH-1Z helicopters in the provinces of Donetsk,
theaviationist.com theaviationist.com

cheers
 
Forest Green said:
www.defensenews.com

Ukraine wants 12 Viper attack helicopters spurned by Slovakia

A Ukrainian lawmaker has called on defense leaders in Bratislava to make up their minds about a pending Viper offer.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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RavenOne said:
Slovakia decided at the last moment they would rather spend the money on their fast jet fleet instead of the AH-1Z so now Ukraine is eyeing the ones that were destined for them.

theaviationist.com

Ukraine Pushes for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters Rejected by Slovakia

Vadym Ivchenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliamentary Committee on National Security said Ukraine needs the AH-1Z helicopters in the provinces of Donetsk,
theaviationist.com theaviationist.com

cheers
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NMaude said:
I hope that Ukraine gets them.
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Considering how vulnerable helicopters have been to MANPADS and AA guns in the current Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine would have to be very careful with any Vipers or Apaches they may acquire and use in the future.

Also, is the Viper's 20mm M197 rotary cannon still a useful weapon these days? How about the 30mm M230 chain gun as once proposed during the mid-1970s (joshwagstaff13, War Thunder, 2018) or its derivative the 20mm Sky Viper chain gun proposed for the now-cancelled Future Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft (The War Zone, 2021)?
 
RavenOne said:
Slovakia decided at the last moment they would rather spend the money on their fast jet fleet instead of the AH-1Z so now Ukraine is eyeing the ones that were destined for them.

theaviationist.com

Ukraine Pushes for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters Rejected by Slovakia

Vadym Ivchenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliamentary Committee on National Security said Ukraine needs the AH-1Z helicopters in the provinces of Donetsk,
theaviationist.com theaviationist.com

cheers
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Taiwan is a AH-1W user and might be the best commercial prospect. Sell them 12 at a bargain price and then upgrade or replace their current AH-1W fleet. Another possiblity is an expansion of Baharain’s fleet or early delivery to Nigeria. Putting aside the political speculation, Slovakia was essentially replacing MiG-29s with attack helicopters, so a return to the procurement of fast jets makes far more sense.

As far as Ukraine, a fleet of only 12 units would hinder the war effort more than supporting it. Not enough airframes to do any good, but enough to divert pilots from more urgent needs. Moreover, the USMC buy of the AH-1Z was too small to provide additional airframes. If anything, using the unused 12 helos as future attrition replacements for the USMC might be the best use. Personally, I hope the DoD and Bell have contacted Taiwan where there are the resources for a much bigger buy to replace the AH-1Ws. It would be nice to see 12 leading to a further order for three or four dozen.
 
Christopher Wang said:
Considering how vulnerable helicopters have been to MANPADS and AA guns in the current Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine would have to be very careful with any Vipers or Apaches they may acquire and use in the future.

Also, is the Viper's 20mm M197 rotary cannon still a useful weapon these days? How about the 30mm M230 chain gun as once proposed during the mid-1970s (joshwagstaff13, War Thunder, 2018) or its derivative the 20mm Sky Viper chain gun proposed for the now-cancelled Future Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft (The War Zone, 2021)?
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The 20mm does outrange any/all 12.7mm AA guns, and it outranges 14.5mm AA. It may-or-may-not effectively outrange the ZSU-23-4 Shilka. (depends on whose numbers you trust)

If you have APKWS rockets loaded, you smite the zeus first, then go in. I'd even say that a Zeus is worth spending a Hellfire on.
 
TinWing said:
Taiwan is a AH-1W user and might be the best commercial prospect. Sell them 12 at a bargain price and then upgrade or replace their current AH-1W fleet. Another possiblity is an expansion of Baharain’s fleet or early delivery to Nigeria. Putting aside the political speculation, Slovakia was essentially replacing MiG-29s with attack helicopters, so a return to the procurement of fast jets makes far more sense.

As far as Ukraine, a fleet of only 12 units would hinder the war effort more than supporting it. Not enough airframes to do any good, but enough to divert pilots from more urgent needs. Moreover, the USMC buy of the AH-1Z was too small to provide additional airframes. If anything, using the unused 12 helos as future attrition replacements for the USMC might be the best use. Personally, I hope the DoD and Bell have contacted Taiwan where there are the resources for a much bigger buy to replace the AH-1Ws. It would be nice to see 12 leading to a further order for three or four dozen.
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Your statement makes no sense in the face of the fact that France is supplying Ukraine with 12 Mirage 2000s. You cannot have that argument both ways with the same number of items so to speak.
 
Christopher Wang said:
Considering how vulnerable helicopters have been to MANPADS and AA guns in the current Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine would have to be very careful with any Vipers or Apaches they may acquire and use in the future.

Also, is the Viper's 20mm M197 rotary cannon still a useful weapon these days? How about the 30mm M230 chain gun as once proposed during the mid-1970s (joshwagstaff13, War Thunder, 2018) or its derivative the 20mm Sky Viper chain gun proposed for the now-cancelled Future Armed Reconnaissance Aircraft (The War Zone, 2021)?
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If you were looking to improve the gun the simplest option would be to replace the M197 with the 20mm XM915 that was intended for FARA. It's a three-barrel Gatling type design like the M197 using the same 20x102mm ammunition, and almost certainly a further development of the XM301 that was intended for the RAH-66 Comanche. The biggest improvement is probably lighter weight, but I believe it's supposed to be more accurate.

The Sky Viper is interesting, but it uses the same 20x102mm ammunition the others do, so even if it is noticeably more accurate than the competition there wouldn't be a huge increase in effective range. I believe the Army had decided on the XM915 before deciding to cancel the program, which was right after they had assured the senate that it was Army Aviation's #1 modernization priority.

I think the AH-1Z is now the size and weight where it could handle the recoil of a 30x113mm cannon like the M230 well. One unlikely option would be to make a modern version of the XM188 which was a three-barrel Gatling from the same era as the M197.

But someone would have to pay for all of the necessary changes for any of these options, and I don't think any of the minor AH-1Z users would. The USMC probably won't either because of their force restructure plans. If they changed direction and found the money, they'd probably select the XM915 because the flatter trajectory of the 20mm is better suited to engaging air targets.

Regarding attack helicopter guns in general, it would be a good idea for improvements made in the newer 30x113mm M230LW and XM914 to be applied on an upgraded M230 for the AH-64 fleet. Chances are it would allow for somewhat improved accuracy and also allow for the possibility of firing smart airburst ammunition in the future.
 
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TinWing said:
Taiwan is a AH-1W user and might be the best commercial prospect. Sell them 12 at a bargain price and then upgrade or replace their current AH-1W fleet. Another possiblity is an expansion of Baharain’s fleet or early delivery to Nigeria. Putting aside the political speculation, Slovakia was essentially replacing MiG-29s with attack helicopters, so a return to the procurement of fast jets makes far more sense.

As far as Ukraine, a fleet of only 12 units would hinder the war effort more than supporting it. Not enough airframes to do any good, but enough to divert pilots from more urgent needs. Moreover, the USMC buy of the AH-1Z was too small to provide additional airframes. If anything, using the unused 12 helos as future attrition replacements for the USMC might be the best use. Personally, I hope the DoD and Bell have contacted Taiwan where there are the resources for a much bigger buy to replace the AH-1Ws. It would be nice to see 12 leading to a further order for three or four dozen.
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Taiwan's previous selection of the AH-64E makes acquisition of the AH-1Z seem questionable. I'm not saying it couldn't happen for the right price, just that more AH-64Es seems more likely.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Nope. Their requirement is for something that is at least as fast and long ranged as the Osprey.

They're going to get a gunship version of the V-280. Or possibly the V-247 UCAV.
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The V280 would not make a good gunship, 360 Invictus would be more maneuverable, I hate to say it but the V280 is a transport. That is why the AH-64, AH-1Z and RAH-66 have similar configurations, they were designed as attack choppers.
 
Hydroman said:
The V280 would not make a good gunship, 360 Invictus would be more maneuverable, I hate to say it but the V280 is a transport. That is why the AH-64, AH-1Z and RAH-66 have similar configurations, they were designed as attack choppers.
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The USMC specifically require an Osprey Escort.

Which means a tilt rotor.

I fully expect a tandem seat attack fuselage to get made for the V280, in addition to the transport fuselage.
 
Scott Kenny said:
The USMC specifically require an Osprey Escort.

Which means a tilt rotor.

I fully expect a tandem seat attack fuselage to get made for the V280, in addition to the transport fuselage.
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I'm not sure. Given the transit speeds desired, they may well prefer internal weapon stowage for reduced drag. That probably leads us back to a wide fuselage and side-by-side cockpit.

What we probably won't see is the classic attack helicopter attack from the hover. But with fire and forget weapons, you don't need to hang out to guide them anyway.

Edit: forgot to mention that whatever aircraft the Marines adopt to replace the AH-1 will likely also need to replace the UH-1. That rules out a bird like the Invictus, which just doesn't have the volume for the utility transport role.
 
Wouldn´t that be more relevant for the US Army and Marines to acquire the lot of A-10 from USAF's hands, those at least that are still capable fly for the next decade?
 
TomcatViP said:
Wouldn´t that be more relevant for the US Army and Marines to acquire the lot of A-10 from USAF's hands, those at least that are still capable fly for the next decade?
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No.

For starters, the Marines need to fly from amphibs, which the A-10 cannot do under any circumstances.

For the Army, aside from the Key West issues, the A-10 is tethered to fixed air bases, so operationally not a match to the Army.
 
You don´t conduct long range assault every days. I am pretty sure that a coordinated package departing from different locations can do the trick.
For the amphib equation., F-35 are already there.
For the US Army. A-10 can fly from nearly everywhere flat and paved. The Mohawk before did its fair share honorably.
 
TomS said:
I'm not sure. Given the transit speeds desired, they may well prefer internal weapon stowage for reduced drag. That probably leads us back to a wide fuselage and side-by-side cockpit.

What we probably won't see is the classic attack helicopter attack from the hover. But with fire and forget weapons, you don't need to hang out to guide them anyway.

Edit: forgot to mention that whatever aircraft the Marines adopt to replace the AH-1 will likely also need to replace the UH-1. That rules out a bird like the Invictus, which just doesn't have the volume for the utility transport role.
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Bell 525 (Invictus?) and Comanche were tandem cockpits with bays, so I'm not sure we'll see a side-by-side attack tiltrotor.

Though there's arguments either way.
 
TomcatViP said:
You don´t conduct long range assault every days. I am pretty sure that a coordinated package departing from different locations can do the trick.
For the amphib equation., F-35 are already there.
For the US Army. A-10 can fly from nearly everywhere flat and paved. The Mohawk before did its fair share honorably.
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You don't, but the Marines buy aircraft for doing them.
 
The Army cannot afford the A-10. The Army does not have the people for A-10. The Army does not want to be tied to airfields at all. The Army has no growth space in a flat budget. The Army got rid of OH-58D due to budget, and killed FARA because it did not have the budget for two new start rotorcraft.
 
TomcatViP said:
You don´t conduct long range assault every days. I am pretty sure that a coordinated package departing from different locations can do the trick.
For the amphib equation., F-35 are already there.
For the US Army. A-10 can fly from nearly everywhere flat and paved. The Mohawk before did its fair share honorably.
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The A-10 is not designed for rough-field operations. It can fly from highways in a pinch, but that was not the design brief. Mohawk was an entirely different class of aircraft.
 
The A-10 will eventually go away with no successor unfortunately. Can't use an F-35, too complex, too fragile, can't take hits or sustain damage. The Textron Scorpian if refined I think could make a very good A-10 replacement but the services do not like unsolicited proposals even if the primes are right on the money regarding the missions, just the way the USG world works unfortunately. Look at the helo programs the Army has screwed up and the money wasted, some generals and other officers should have been busted to private then jailed as far as I'm concerned.
 
Empty long strait roads will likely be at a premium in a major conflict. Supply columns and refugees may make it difficult. Long strait roads with no one on them may draw attention.
 
yasotay said:
Empty long strait roads will likely be at a premium in a major conflict. Supply columns and refugees may make it difficult. Long strait roads with no one on them may draw attention.
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Paint some cars on them, confuse the drones...


Hydroman said:
The A-10 will eventually go away with no successor unfortunately. Can't use an F-35, too complex, too fragile, can't take hits or sustain damage. The Textron Scorpian if refined I think could make a very good A-10 replacement but the services do not like unsolicited proposals even if the primes are right on the money regarding the missions, just the way the USG world works unfortunately. Look at the helo programs the Army has screwed up and the money wasted, some generals and other officers should have been busted to private then jailed as far as I'm concerned.
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Honestly, I suspect that the replacement for the A-10 will be a tilt-rotor quarterbacking various drones.
 
Are there any insurmountable limited life/fatigue reasons (considering that the fleet has already been successfully re-winged) why the A-10 with its deliberate modular design from the onset could not go down the route of the B-52 to become a very active senior citizen?
 
martinbayer said:
Are there any insurmountable limited life/fatigue reasons (considering that the fleet has already been successfully re-winged) why the A-10 with its deliberate modular design from the onset could not go down the route of the B-52 to become a very active senior citizen?
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None that I'm aware of, all the issues I've ever heard are operational ones.

Slow to deploy internationally, expensive to operate because it uses things nothing else in the inventory does (so the USAF eats the full cost of that school and parts pipeline as well), and looking to be rather unsurvivable in a modern near-peer conflict.
 
Scott Kenny said:
None that I'm aware of, all the issues I've ever heard are operational ones.

Slow to deploy internationally, expensive to operate because it uses things nothing else in the inventory does (so the USAF eats the full cost of that school and parts pipeline as well), and looking to be rather unsurvivable in a modern near-peer conflict.
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Wouldn't those arguments mostly pertain to the B-52 as well though? Yet the BUFF endures - perhaps the USAF just has an inherent disdain for low level tactical mudslinging missions? I always thought it was sheer idiocy to essentially limit the US Army to weaponized helicopters per the Key West Agreement and prevent it from having fixed wing armed assets, but I realize we've strayed a long way from the original Cobra topic...
 
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martinbayer said:
Wouldn't those arguments pertain to the B-52 as well though? Yet the BUFF endures - perhaps the USAF just has an inherent disdain for low level tactical mudslinging missions? I always thought it was sheer idiocy to essentially limit the US Army to weaponized helicopters and prevent it from having fixed wing armed assets per the Key West Agreement, but I realize we've strayed a long way from the original Cobra topic...
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The BUFF at least has an objective role in delivering cruise missiles to their launch point, and neither B-2 nor B-21 seem to be set up to do so at this time. The BUFF also carries 2.5x the load of a B-21, and 1.25x the load of a B-2. (20 ALCMs versus 8 in the B-21 or 16 in the B-2)

Yes, some C-17s could Rapid Dragon more cruise missiles around, but that's not a nuclear option.
 
martinbayer said:
Hello Scott, I'm not arguing against maintaining the B-52, I'm arguing for maintaining the A-10. I'm simply for keeping all response options open.
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Right, but the mission for the A10 means getting into SAM, AAA, and MANPADS range. And it's just not survivable enough anymore.

While the BUFF has a mission that does not require getting into enemy range.
 

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