Bell 360 Invictus (FARA program)

Since Bell builds the AH-1Z Cobra and look at the 360 Invictus configuration, when the USMC needs a Cobra replacement, Bell can say we got one. This could be a potential plan of Bell's? It seems no one wants LM/Sikorsky's coaxial-pusher prop.
 
Hydroman said:
Since Bell builds the AH-1Z Cobra and look at the 360 Invictus configuration, when the USMC needs a Cobra replacement, Bell can say we got one. This could be a potential plan of Bell's? It seems no one wants LM/Sikorsky's coaxial-pusher prop.
Click to expand...
USMC very much wants an armed tiltrotor to escort their Ospreys. They're talking 350+ knots for the Osprey Escort mission.
 
Basil said:
While Bell has its tilt rotor program for the army running, the cancellation must be a real blow for Sikorsky.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats why the Army are throwing them the lifeline of the change to the Black Hawk program, instead of upgrading UH-60L to UH-60V for the National Guard they will buy clean build UH-60M instead.
 
Last edited:
yasotay said:
If the DoD is accepting of loosing thousands of UAV (as is going on in Ukraine), then UAS is viable. There is still a significant challenge for Pacific operations due to range requirements. This is not an issue for tactical operations in Europe or Middle East. Small UAS are sufficient as long as the weather conditions are benign. Higher winds and rain are problematic for small UAS and larger UAS have the same survivability issues as helos against a competent air defense network.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that drones are actually increasingly becoming less viable in the Ukraine, especially the much hyped FPV variants, due to ever improving Russian Electronic Warfare (including cyberwar) capabilities. I suspect that the Army is going to seriously regret cancelling FARA sooner rather than later.

In the meantime though, on a somewhat darkly hilarious note:
Grey Havoc said:
breakingdefense.com

Move over FARA: General Atomics pitching new Gray Eagle version for armed scout mission - Breaking Defense

General Atomics will also showcase its Mojave demonstrator for the first time during the Army Aviation Association of America conference in Denver, a company spokesman said.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
Click to expand...
 
Quite right too Grey Havoc. If you ask me it will be the most stupid decision the US Army has ever made since the cancellation of the Comanche, which would have served in the same role as the FARA.:mad:
 
Grey Havoc said:
Not to mention that drones are actually increasingly becoming less viable in the Ukraine, especially the much hyped FPV variants, due to ever improving Russian Electronic Warfare (including cyberwar) capabilities.
Click to expand...
Not so much really, still lots of successful FPV videos on Twitter. What it has shown is that helicopters trying to use direct LOS targeting have been hammered.

I think the reason FARA was cancelled is that any helicopter, no matter how good or stealthy, will never be stealthy in direct line-of-sight at the ranges they traditionally operate from. What's needed is off-board sensor (OBS) integration on Apaches for OTH targeting. OBS can be lots of small drones, or a Gray Eagle using it's radar to find targets from altitude a safe distance behind the front. It could also be troops on the ground. The best stealth a helicopter has is being on the other side of the horizon.

A greater question is whether helicopters, given their short range can operate at all, given the possibility that their base with be targeted with SRBM delivered cluster munitions.
 
So this could mean that it could ultimately spell the end of helicopters as we currently know them. Unless they adapt the Bell Valor into a multi role attack/reconnaissance platform that would be faster than helicopters and offer better range as well.
 
Forest Green said:
Not so much really, still lots of successful FPV videos on Twitter. What it has shown is that helicopters trying to use direct LOS targeting have been hammered.

I think the reason FARA was cancelled is that any helicopter, no matter how good or stealthy, will never be stealthy in direct line-of-sight at the ranges they traditionally operate from. What's needed is off-board sensor (OBS) integration on Apaches for OTH targeting. OBS can be lots of small drones, or a Gray Eagle using it's radar to find targets from altitude a safe distance behind the front. It could also be troops on the ground. The best stealth a helicopter has is being on the other side of the horizon.

A greater question is whether helicopters, given their short range can operate at all, given the possibility that their base with be targeted with SRBM delivered cluster munitions.
Click to expand...
I would caution that Twitter rarely shows failure, although I did see one video of two FPV hitting a tank to little or no effect.

FARA was cancelled due to out year funding issues. UAS was a convenient excuse, and as pointed out above, even with its "longer" legs it was not very viable in a Pacific war. Easy target. Interestingly the FARA was to fly forward to a point just short of the Weapons Effects Zone (WEZ) of threat ADA and launch, Air Launched Effects to penetrate said WEZ and report to the FARA. The FARA, as the up front orchestrator of reconnaissance, would review the data and then push it back to higher HQ for decisions on priority targets to be shot. Part of that rational was that even with ground control stations far back, the signal in a high jamming environments and lack of usable bandwidth meant you needed a human on the loop forward. Humans don't need bandwidth. Note: first rule of Aero Scouting - use someone else's bullets.
With the demise of FARA it will indeed fall on the Apache to take on the mission.
It is keenly understood that nowhere is safe for anyone any more if you are a priority target. Dispersion in the rear area will be very much a factor in military operations.
While there are a number of VTOL solutions that could be developed to overcome the tyranny of distance, there is little stomach in the US to invest more funds just now. That said, Sikorsky is returning to tilt wing technology. However, I do not see them going out on risk without DoD funding.
Bell is already touting the virtues of the large open space behind the crew for more fuel and anything you can think of that will fit in that space (missiles, Air Launched UAS, guns, rockets, sonar buoys, etc.). USMC will remain coy until the Army has spent all the money to get the aircraft into service and then pile on. It is more likely to me that allies will join the effort before the other US Services.
 
Last edited:
Depends on the type of FPV. The capabilities you mention for FARA are also nothing that couldn't be added to an Apache, and that was the problem, why spend the money on a new airframe, when the new airframe would not add anything in and of itself.

FighterJock said:
So this could mean that it could ultimately spell the end of helicopters as we currently know them. Unless they adapt the Bell Valor into a multi role attack/reconnaissance platform that would be faster than helicopters and offer better range as well.
Click to expand...
Depends on the type of war, it's a shifting scenario at the moment. However, even if an enemy doesn't have 500km SRBMs, the heli base could still be bombarded with drones, in fact, I'm surprised a heli hasn't been taken out mid-air by one yet.
 
Same here Forest Green, I am equally surprised that has not happened yet too. Sooner or later a helicopter willl be taken down by a drone carrying IR Air to Air Missiles like the Sidewinder or the R-73/R-74.
 
FighterJock said:
Same here Forest Green, I am equally surprised that has not happened yet too. Sooner or later a helicopter willl be taken down by a drone carrying IR Air to Air Missiles like the Sidewinder or the R-73/R-74.
Click to expand...
Sooner or later a heli will just take a drone in the face IMO.
 
Forest Green said:
Sooner or later a heli will just take a drone in the face IMO.
Click to expand...
If I am not mistaken, an Israeli Apache has already accomplished that. Still I suspect that FighterJock is correct. Consider that a FPV through the rotor system is probably equally effective.
 
Issue with using FPV drones to take out Helicopters is to fold. To say nothing of the EWAR angle which most of hte newer birds are getting.

First is that the Prop was and speed of helicopters keep the Cheap quad copter drones away like a damn shield. The Prop Wash straight up blows them away. You need to get above, which is one of those EASIER SAID then done deals.

So no you have to use the more expensive specialy built psuedo missile FPV drones. Which are bigger and more robust to take higher speeds. And are easiler for the varisous sensor on a attack copter to spot and send a stream of 30mm proxy fuse that way. Or use the Copter greater speed and agility to just move out of the way.

Point simple?

The FPV drones are not a silver bullet Helicopter Killer. Just another speciality shell on the bandolier to be pull out as needed.
 
I agree that FPV are not a silver bullet, and if the operator is not familiar with how to do a lead pursuit it is not likely to be effective. We must also remember that helicopters are not always flying at full speed and the top of the rotors have the same volume or air going down.
 
yasotay said:
If I am not mistaken, an Israeli Apache has already accomplished that. Still I suspect that FighterJock is correct. Consider that a FPV through the rotor system is probably equally effective.
Click to expand...
Couldn't find that on Google.

yasotay said:
I agree that FPV are not a silver bullet, and if the operator is not familiar with how to do a lead pursuit it is not likely to be effective. We must also remember that helicopters are not always flying at full speed and the top of the rotors have the same volume or air going down.
Click to expand...
Sometimes helicopters are just hovering near tree lines while searching for enemy vehicles.
 
Shahed shooting with door guns seems to be a growing sport.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom