Battlefield Support Fighters - SABA, Skorpion, ATLAS etc

[LowObservable]

Great fun... By the way, it's easy to arrive at that configuration when you start doodling a dedicated CAS platform. You start with a single prop (cost, speed, and a conventional twin-prop does not buy you much survivability). Then you go to a twin-boom pusher to get the engine out of the pilot's forward/downward vision and clear the nose for sensors or guns. Then you say "it's FBW anyway", put the stabilizer in front and lose the booms.

 

[flateric]

Source: Inernational Combat Arms

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

I have an illustration of the BAe P.1233 that I've been working on.....I think I have found motivation to finish it.....

 

[flateric]

actually, stolen from British Secret Projects. Need to remove 'em. See Forum rules.

 

[fightingirish]

Jazz, I'm not familiar with Hamilton HX-11 (do only know the Hamilton designations A-II, H-1, HA-1, HX-1, HX-321, and HXT-2). Could you give more details or a source, where I can find a description?
Thanks.

Here a picture of the Hamilton HX-321.
Facts & figures will follow tomorrow. It's late now.
Source: Flug Revue - Trainer in Zivil, page 78, February 1989

 

[Skybolt]

Wasnìt SABA more a Hind killer then a CAS ?

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

I was under the impression it was to meet the threat of the Hokum.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

A couple of drawings I found in a Vought presentation of the SABA.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[tpatxx]

Lockheed ATLAS
Does anyone have any details of this tank killer concept?
Googling has turned up a single artist's impression & very little detail.
Were Lockheed kite flying or was it a response to some requirement?

It is noticeable how many canard, rear engined, turboprop/unducted fan designs have been put forward for CAS/ battlefield air support: ATLAS, BAe SABA, PZL-230 Skorpion, Aeroprogress T-720, 1969 Northrop AX-1. Is this form following function?

 

[Rafael]

And what about this Atlas?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,170.msg6338.html#msg6338

 

[SOC]

The second one bears a small resemblance to the IML Addax.

 

[Stargazer]

There was also a McDonnell Douglas project along very similar lines circa 1973. It's somewhere on this forum, but where?

 

[foiling]

I have had this drawing for many years; it comes from 'Jane's All The World's Aircraft', probably circa 1997. Does it dit into this topic? I rather like the design; does any one know more about it?

 

[robunos]

Hmmmmm........ it appears to use stock Su-25 flying surfaces....


cheers,
Robin.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Discussed in this topic. Possibly the Sukhoi S-46, but not certainly identified.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,50.0.html

 

[quellish]

There was also a McDonnell Douglas project along very similar lines circa 1973. It's somewhere on this forum, but where?

I believe the design you're thinking of is the McDD 268 XST.

 

[Stargazer]

An advertisement for the Hamilton A-II multi-mission fighter project from AW&ST (early 1990s):

 

[cluttonfred]

Here's an 1979 article from FLIGHT that sums up the USAF's complete disinterest in this concept.

 

[Michel Van]

Some Info about Hawker Siddeley (later BAe Kingston) SABA WSRA studies
Minicas study = Mini Close Air Support
HS.1194 fuselage with canard and "kaspers wing"
Powered by Roll Royce RB.199 turbofan in a "rotary augmentor system"
HS.1196 the fuselage resemblance the Heinkel He 162 and Henschel Hs 132
with Viper turbojet engine
a vertral 30 mm ADEN cannon
4 QC434/SRAAM against enemy aircraft

SABA = Small Agile Battlefield Aircraft
P.1233-1 with pusher propfan
P.1234-1 Idea of put a gun turret under a blended body wing aircraft
with Roll-Royce-Adour RT-172-871 Engine
2 ASRAAM for self defence
P.1234-2 with fuselage similar to Sukhoi Su-25 but more compact
Avco Lycoming ALF-502 engine
Armament same like P.1233-1
p.1234-3 A small deltawing aircraft
under fuselage a 360° turret with 2 launchtube for guided "Hypervelocity" missile (12 rounds)
P.1238 with pusher propfan in twin Tailboom (looks more like ww2 Focke-Wulf "Flitzer")

P.1239 A Aircraft with modular weaponpod over the wings:

• CASTOR ground surveillance radar platform
• Turred mounted M37 20 mm cannon
• Turred mounted Oerlikon 30 mm KCA cannon
• Dispenser for HB.876 mines and BL.755 bomblets
• 72 upwards firing Merlin smart Mortar rounds
• 14 rounds magazine with Startreak "Hypervelocity" missile

also was consider a unmanned P.1239 version with 2 S225 AAM as Fighter

WSRA = Wide Speed Range Aircraft
a Ministry of Technology inspired study by westland and Hawker Siddeley
for a combination of helicopter and aircraft
the fuselage similar the Alpha Jet but with T-tail
with two rotorblade are mounted over the wings
Armament 4 BAe anti missile
but the program was victim of cost cutting

Source:
British Secret Projects: Jet Bomber | by Tony Buttler, Midland
Page 166-168
British Secret Projects: Hypersonic, Ramjets & Missile | by Chris Gibson & Tony Buttler, Midland
Page 82-86

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Reuploaded Mark's Atlas PDF. Thanks Luc.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/LTV Atlas Concept.pdf

 

[Avimimus]

also was consider a unmanned P.1239 version with 2 S225 AAM as Fighter

I wonder how this was envisioned in operation (Having an on-board radar? Having an automatic killbox that allied aircraft would avoid flying into?)

WSRA = Wide Speed Range Aircraft
a Ministry of Technology inspired study by westland and Hawker Siddeley
for a combination of helicopter and aircraft
the fuselage similar the Alpha Jet but with T-tail
with two rotorblade are mounted over the wings

So the British equivalent of the Kamov V-100?

 

[Triton]

Lockheed ATLAS twin-UDF engine configuration.

Source:
http://www.combatreform.org/killerbees2.htm

 

[flateric]

Pirania (1991) and Szerszeń (1995) by Tomasz Makowski from Instytut Lotnictwa
http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1275/79/IL3
http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1282/79/IL

 

[cluttonfred]

That second one is from the little-known film, "Honey I Shrunk the F-16." ;-)

 

[CostasTT]

Its tail has a decidedly French look, though... at least to me.

 

[BillRo]

Here is an interesting one from a Northrop briefing - late 70's design? Anyone seen this before?

 

[AeroFranz]

Funky...if that's the word I am looking for
It's hard to say, but are those the wheels of a tandem landing gear protruding from the wing fairing?

 

[BillRo]

If you draw a line between them and the tail wheel, it makes it a taildragger too.

 

[Jemiba]

If you draw a line between them and the tail wheel, it makes it a taildragger too.

Seems plausible, as there would be hardly enough space in the nose for stowing away
the nose wheel ! With the main wheels in the fairings it would have a suitable track and
the tandem wheels would reduce pressure on the ground and still allowing for small wheels.
Their diameter is correct for stowing them in those fairings.

 

[cluttonfred]

That would make it one of the very rare post-WWII designs for a jet aircraft with conventional "taildragger" gear. Added to a swept-forward wing and what appears to be an essentially tailless design (with a small trimming canard), this is quite an original little beastie. I would love to learn more.

 

[NUSNA_Moebius]

More from THE VOUGHT ARCHIVES

I like the YF-23-esque design, however, while the planform design would be great for overall lift, overall body strength, and room for fuel, I think it would produce tremendous amounts of drag in turns as α increases. I could be wrong, but I think it would need quite a bit of thrust and energy for good, high rate, high G turn performance much like an F-16 compared to the A-10.

 

[Thiel]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the various Saba proposals? So far the only one I've been able to find any solid measurements of is the P.1233-1.
I'm especially interested in the P.1238

 

[kenneth]

i am referring to replies 20 and 21

the image shown in reply 21 refers to Hamilton Aerospace H-1 Badger, according to company's website.

please note that HA-1 was not produced by Hamilton Aerospace, but by another company also called Hamilton and is a conversion of the Beech Model 18. (see aerofiles)

that leaves the HX-1 and HX-11. JAZZ could you tell us the source of information?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Apparently the original AST-412 selection, a version of the Caproni C.22J built to RAF requirements. It was not proceeded with for some reason, leading to a renewed selection process that eventually resulted in the Shorts Tucano being acquired. Mentioned here because an anti-helicopter variant armed with the air-to-air version of Blowpipe was also planned.

 

[eshelon]

Check this out, guys.
Found today ;D

Hawker-Siddeley P.1239 SABA Proposal

"The central idea was a modular weapons bay that included cannon, hyper velocity missiles, or as seen in the foreground, a system to deploy (72?) 81mm, merlin guided mortar rounds as bomblets."

Amazing.

 

[hesham]

Great find Eshelon.

 

[visemozga]

US- ATLAS Anti-tank-light-attack-system

More information about this project

 

[visemozga]

Re: US- ATLAS Anti-tank-light-attack-system

I was thinking about this

 

[Riverghost]

Re: US- ATLAS Anti-tank-light-attack-system

Turboprop Pusher light attack aircraft!? havent seen this design before! tell me more!

 

[hesham]

In this topic,

my dear JAZZ displayed in reply # 3,the Fancopter and Marchette PL concepts,I knew
them from long time ago,but no more info about them ?.