BAE Taranis UCAS

[Flyaway]

Taranis to enter third testing phase

The UK’s BAE Systems Taranis unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) demonstrator will carry out a third phase of flight tests towards the end of the year, the Ministry of Defence has revealed.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/taranis-to-enter-third-testing-phase-417533/

 

[Flyaway]

More flights of UK's Taranis UCAV possible

BAE Systems is discussing launching a fourth phase of flight trials of its Taranis unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) demonstrator with the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), according to company officials.

He confirmed for the first time that the first three phases of the Taranis flight test programme had taken place at the Woomera Test Facility in Australia between August 2013 and late 2015, ending speculation caused by MoD security restrictions on the release of information about the UK UCAV technology demonstrator project.

http://www.janes.com/article/61149/more-flights-of-uk-s-taranis-ucav-possible

Second article with further detail

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/industry/2016/06/09/taranis-uk-unmanned-combat-uav-drone/85653354/

 

[mrmalaya]

Indeed. It almost reads as if the work on Taranis is happening in parallel to FCAS rather than necessarily feeding in to it.

 

[Flyaway]

Indeed. It almost reads as if the work on Taranis is happening in parallel to FCAS rather than necessarily feeding in to it.

Surely they aren't considering developing it to an operational status as a project.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Indeed. It almost reads as if the work on Taranis is happening in parallel to FCAS rather than necessarily feeding in to it.

Surely they aren't considering developing it to an operational status as a project.

These are desperate times, one could argue.

 

[mrmalaya]

Well I'm not linking it to Brexit or anything like that.

The article states that FCAS is out with industry whilst they work out specifications and capabilities for the next stage.

Perhaps meanwhile BAE and the MOD see some utility in continuing development of the AI and LO features of a design that is still too hush hush to fly at airshows

 

[Flyaway]

Indeed. It almost reads as if the work on Taranis is happening in parallel to FCAS rather than necessarily feeding in to it.

Surely they aren't considering developing it to an operational status as a project.

These are desperate times, one could argue.

Well the RQ-170 was seemingly put together using off the shelf parts, as was much of this program.

 

[mrmalaya]

There is a clear difference between the BAE teams approach to the programme and the Dassault led Neuron team.

BAE have grudgingly acknowledged the existence of Taranis, taken years to let us know what we already new about it's test location and have given no real insight into its build, capabilities or performance.

Team Neuron on the other hand have the thing flying at airshows, have released CAD imagery and video of their plans for it and are generally approaching their programme as a way of touting their capabilities.

I just wonder if Taranis is too good to tout (and clearly being a UK only programme it has more strategic value than the euro project).

 

[Flyaway]

They should consider turning it into a low number production platform for intelligence gathering. It can probably get into the kind of contested airspace that I doubt any of our other current air assets could.

 

[flateric]

I just wonder if Taranis is too good to tout (and clearly being a UK only programme it has more strategic value than the euro project).

Not far from truth. It took a long time before UK finally decided to enter FCAS. Reason given was Neuron tech has little or nothing to add to what Taranis already have.

 

[flateric]

...

 

[SteveO]

Thanks for sharing flateric, very interesting.

 

[Flyaway]

Thanks for those. Says all testing has completed. Yet here we are with about to engage on a fourth program.

 

[mrmalaya]

Yes very interesting. Particularly the details about the back end.

 

[mrmalaya]

I have been pointed in the direction of this French article on Taranis.

The general idea, is that BAE is unhappy with the work-share on FCAS and has more investment and a greater technological lead in Taranis. It also goes on to say that the next phase of Taranis testing will take place in Wales with specific facilities being created and the potential for future work being used as a sop for the Welsh assembly....

http://www.ttu.fr/fcas-retour-taranis/

Translation:

"Despite the agreement signed with Paris for the development of a common UCAV, London has in no way abandoned cooperation with Northrop under the UCAS-D program of the US Navy. But above all, Britain is pursuing with great discretion its work on its "black program" of national supersonic UCAV, the Taranis.
Directly inherited from the joint work with Lockheed in the late 1990s on the Dark Star, BAE has capitalized on this partnership by developing for its prototype its own stealth solutions. But most importantly, the British group has carried out important work on the integration of high-capacity batteries to enable the Taranis (the god of lightning among the Celts) to generate the electrical impulse necessary for the use of a future Weapon directed energy unusable on aircraft driven because of the deadly effects of its radiation.
BAE remains faithfully attached to this project because of the underweight that threatens it after the stop of the Eurofighter production line. But also because he considers himself disadvantaged compared to Dassault within the framework of the FCAS, as demonstrated by his campaign of lobbying the British parliamentarians. This campaign seems to have had a first effect.
Shortly before the Paris Air Show, it was decided to integrate the Llanbedr air base, also located in Wales, to the Aberporth test center, now operated by QinetiQ, and used until 2001 by the DTOE and The DERA for weapon system testing. While Aberporth is hosting drone trials, such as the Watchkeeper, the most secret projects, such as the Taranis, HERTI or Mantis, were tested in flight far from any potential listening area on the RAAF prohibited area In Woomera, in the Australian desert, located 450 km from Adelaide. The MoD has recently decided to launch new test campaigns on the Taranis, no longer in Australia this time but in Llanbedr.
The awakening of the Taranis would have been presented to the Welsh parliamentarians as a lever for economic development. A decision which, if confirmed, may give rise to financial arbitrage in the face of the FCAS, due to the state of British military budgets."

It might explain my observation that BAE has so little to say on the subject of FCAS....

 

[Mat Parry]

But most importantly, the British group has carried out important work on the integration of high-capacity batteries to enable the Taranis (the god of lightning among the Celts) to generate the electrical impulse necessary for the use of a future Weapon directed energy unusable on aircraft driven because of the deadly effects of its radiation.

first time I've heard of this, thoughts anyone?

 

[mrmalaya]

I have read an article about BAE trying to create structural batteries because of the need to address energy storage in the future.

It also ties in with the ambition stated in the Novel Air Concept project (which may have died?) to incorporate laser and microwave weapons.

 

[Hood]

I'm not familiar with the source so can't vouch for its accuracy or opinions.
The tone seems vaguely antagonistic towards BAE Systems, but it seems that BAE has a lead in certain technologies compared to Dassault and is making the most out of them the best they can. Who can blame them for that?

I hadn't heard about the laser/microwave weapons integration with Taranis before. My understanding was that Taranis was a testbed for demonstrating LO, sensor, control and communications technology.
If they are weaponising Taranis then the final phase of development could well be weapons integration and would fit within the original demonstrator role of Taranis. A laser/microwave weapon is probably less central to FCAS so this may well be a separate BAE R&D programme.

 

[Ian33]

But most importantly, the British group has carried out important work on the integration of high-capacity batteries to enable the Taranis (the god of lightning among the Celts) to generate the electrical impulse necessary for the use of a future Weapon directed energy unusable on aircraft driven because of the deadly effects of its radiation.

first time I've heard of this, thoughts anyone?

Yes. Flying CHAMP (low flying profile over the defences that F35s will be tasked to route over or near, and whammo, lights out people!) On an interesting note, ferries from and to Stranraer have had staff report 'low flying triangles' in the last two months, as have Barrow in Furness folks out early morning.

 

[steelpillow]

But most importantly, the British group has carried out important work on the integration of high-capacity batteries to enable the Taranis (the god of lightning among the Celts) to generate the electrical impulse necessary for the use of a future Weapon directed energy unusable on aircraft driven because of the deadly effects of its radiation.

first time I've heard of this, thoughts anyone?

What kind of directed energy discharge would be more lethal to the crew than to the onboard systems?

 

[Flyaway]

I have been pointed in the direction of this French article on Taranis.

The general idea, is that BAE is unhappy with the work-share on FCAS and has more investment and a greater technological lead in Taranis. It also goes on to say that the next phase of Taranis testing will take place in Wales with specific facilities being created and the potential for future work being used as a sop for the Welsh assembly....

It might explain my observation that BAE has so little to say on the subject of FCAS....

Thanks for the link, matches rumours drifting round industry.

FI, not sure why work in Wales would be a particular "sop" for the Welsh assembly, Wales is popular with industry in general because its cheap and from a UAS testing perspective the Aberporth test range (or Wales UAS environment as it is now known) is there. It's practically the perfect location for testing a UK built UCAV (with the exception of greater risk of Russian sea based espionage compared to Woomera).

Could they be thinking of turning it into a production program if they are unhappy with French cooperation (who'd thought the French would prove tricky to deal with!)?

 

[LowObservable]

On an interesting note, ferries from and to Stranraer have had staff report 'low flying triangles' in the last two months, as have Barrow in Furness folks out early morning.

Vulcans caught in a time-rip? And mysterious flying triangles in the seas around Britain. What will these young people think of next?

 

[Hood]

Well I live near(ish) to Barrow but haven't seen anything in the early morning. Considering a Taranis would have to fly up from Warton across most of the Fylde coast to get to Barrow you would have thought there might have been more sightings.
Actually not seen anything interesting flying past my office window for a few weeks, sometimes get a Herk or pair of Chinooks low-down heading north up the M6 corridor or very rarely a Typhoon or Apache.

 

[mrmalaya]

On an interesting note, ferries from and to Stranraer have had staff report 'low flying triangles' in the last two months, as have Barrow in Furness folks out early morning.

Vulcans caught in a time-rip? And mysterious flying triangles in the seas around Britain. What will these young people think of next?

But the 90s edge makes it all so exciting! I'm quite sure these stories will be dismissed in the same way though.

 

[red admiral]

Tornados with wings swept aft...

Taranis is busy destroying wind turbines


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1108973/Unmanned-stealth-bomber-UFO-responsible-destroying-wind-turbine.html

 

[mrmalaya]

Well on that note:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8889000/8889489.stm

Grey, wedge-shaped and it's even the right county...

If nothing else it helps with the idea something was flying around before Taranis.

 

[steelpillow]

Tornados with wings swept aft...

Taranis is busy destroying wind turbines


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1108973/Unmanned-stealth-bomber-UFO-responsible-destroying-wind-turbine.html

That was dated 8 1/2 years ago. I expect Taranis learned its lesson.

But it is a lovely example of the law of unintended consequences.

And what a great computer game - fly through a wind farm without hitting anything. Come to think of it, that has probably been done.

 

[CJGibson]

Ah, the 90s, none of that Google mullarky. Had to talk to folk - face-to-face or on the phone. Write proper letters even. With a pen.
Deltas were a popular subject, especially in NW England. One bloke called Tim Matthews became particularly exercised about what was going on at Warton. He used to get into heated arguments with a retired BAE chap whose name escapes me.
I also recall some footage appearing in the late 90s that was supposedly from a UAV flying over a range and it included the video feed and telemetry. Then there was the snap of a grey object flying up a valley near Bolton (I think) that was never identified.

Och, I've gone all nostalgic now. I might even have a look at a Fortean Times next time I'm in WH Smiths. Not as funny as it use to be. Or is that Viz?

Signed

Rowley Birkin QC

 

[Mike Pryce]

Happy new year.

Here is a paper that is free to download until the end of January:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/aeronautical-journal/all-issues/ucavs-in-the-battlefield-operational-design-challenges

It says Taranis is to demonstrate supersonic capability!

 

[jsport]

I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.

thank yo for posting Harrier.
This National Review Author is a prophet among men and he will be likewise be ignored.

 

[mrmalaya]

Hmm, the reference within the paper for Taranis being supersonic, is a BBC article.

Which in turn will be sourced from the original newspaper articles which said it was supersonic.

If you want compelling evidence that Taranis is supersonic, then you only need to pick up a copy of the Guinness Book of Records which calls it "Fastest Unmanned Combat drone" or something equally odd ;D

 

[FighterJock]

Hmm, the reference within the paper for Taranis being supersonic, is a BBC article.

Which in turn will be sourced from the original newspaper articles which said it was supersonic.

If you want compelling evidence that Taranis is supersonic, then you only need to pick up a copy of the Guinness Book of Records which calls it "Fastest Unmanned Combat drone" or something equally odd ;D

I always thought that Taranis was subsonic? I wonder who came up with the nonsense that Taranis is supersonic?

 

[Mike Pryce]

I would be surprised if it was supersonic. Maybe a massive afterburner is hidden away. Big flames are hot but cool!

 

[Mike Pryce]

I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.

thank yo for posting Harrier.
This National Review Author is a prophet among men and he will be likewise be ignored.

If Taranis has big flames and can go supersonic, maybe put it on its tail for VTOL. I would be happy as an airshow visitor.

More seriously, anyone suggesting ways of getting costs down is worth a listen. Their ideas may not be practical, but rebutting them may lead your own thinking somewhere more useful. For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most. But thinking of ways to reduce that while still offering the desired capability..... VAAC Harrier was all about that.

 

[jsport]

I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.

thank yo for posting Harrier.
This National Review Author is a prophet among men and he will be likewise be ignored.

If Taranis has big flames and can go supersonic, maybe put it on its tail for VTOL. I would be happy as an airshow visitor.

More seriously, anyone suggesting ways of getting costs down is worth a listen. Their ideas may not be practical, but rebutting them may lead your own thinking somewhere more useful. For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most. But thinking of ways to reduce that while still offering the desired capability..... VAAC Harrier was all about that.

The FA-XX may need to be a large expensive piece w/ many missions, and even need to be guarded by unmanned versions of itself but an affordable optionally manned fighter has big space to fill as well.

 

[red admiral]

For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most.

Research and development, production, and operations and support cost proportions vary significantly across different programmes. Its not necessarily O&S that is the largest proportion, and its usually the lowest on a per year basis and hence most "affordable". For modern programmes with low production numbers, R&D costs are very significant for launching a new programme.

Now on the training point specifically, modern sims provide both cheaper and more realistic training for BVR combat. There are only a few places with nice big areas of closed airspace a long way from where people can electronically eavesdrop, and these aren't in Western Europe. Then training against realistic threats etc.

 

[Mike Pryce]

It depends on design choices. Development is always expensive if 'all new'. It always amazes me how, post McNamara, we can only cost what the cost database has, so repeat past concepts and approaches. Wider options cannot be costed in a defensible way with standard approaches, so get discounted.

The Harrier is very bad in O&S cost terms, with much flying and resultant maintenance done just to make sure the left hand does the right thing. Designing out the cost is more complex than taking a percentage off each column of the legacy-derived database. VAAC reduced STOVL costs, but no cost engineer would ever have suggested it.

Simulation is often cheaper, as long as it reflects reality, which can be messier than expected.

 

[TomcatViP]

How to go fast:
A: increase thrust
B: reduce drag

 

[Sundog]

How to go fast:
A: increase thrust
B: reduce drag

You forgot; C: Do both

 

[mrmalaya]

I have been told elsewhere that Taranis isn't supersonic because it doesn't look supersonic.

Other than the potential lack of engine thrust, is it the case that Taranis doesn't "look" supersonic?

Potentially relevant here because it may be that the BAE FCAS demonstrator is using the same forebody.