BAE EAP

zen said:
Opportunistic Minnow said:
Well I probably wouldn't mention Captor as a plus point. :) It's embarrassing frankly that a AESA still, still hasn't been fielded. Soon hopefully.
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Yeah but what I said was "at the time", which is well prior to AESA deployment.
In fact back in the early 90's, only the Mig31 using a PESA was in service. Let alone when the real decisions where being taken in the 1980's.
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Well believe it or not RBE2 and J/apg-1 are actually older then CAPTOR. Now Captor has much more range then either. Has RBE2 is supposedly a bit outraged by the Radar on the mirage-20005 and the J/apg-1 is somewhere between apg-66 and 68, but neither of these were built as air superiority fighters. The RBE2 was to consolidate the various radars on the different mirage aircraft into a single unit while the J/apg-1 was built for sea search. RBE2 was started in 1989 and first flew on an actual Rafale in 1993, that same year ECR-90A first flew on a BAC1-11 and I don’t think ECR-90c flew on a DA aircraft till 97-98ish. The engineering model of the J/apg-1 “Future fire control system” first flew on a test aircraft in late 1986, early 1987 and the final model flew on a test aircraft in 1991. Notably the French Navy’s Super Entendard had a PESA starting in 1994 (Anemone) which might have been used in modified form from a French hornet 2000 if the Rafale fell through.

Now of course MSA was much better known and the British especially had an excellent radar industry, it wasn’t a wrong choice to stick with MSA. However the Eurofighter didn’t enter service in 1996, it entered service in 2003 in extremely basic form, and wasn’t really a multi role radar till 2008 when much more powerful AESA arrays were becoming wide spreed. I think much more thought should have been put into aesa upgrade for the early 2010s.
 
zen said:
No I don't see the RAF being overruled. Heseltine jumped on what was I think ACA at the time, but it was firmly rooted in requirements. Which is why it has survived to service.
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The private RAF views of the time are much more that it wasn't the plane they wanted and was basically forced from politics. But then you try to make the best you can.

Early 80s definitely more RAF focus on WVR due to crowded and heavily jammed skies over Germany for WW3 nullifying BVR. Then late 80s all about stealth and STOVL...
 
EAP wing manufacturing technology; leaflet by BAe. (Source : Rochester Avionics Archives. There's even a thread about them https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/rochester-avionic-archives.29176/)

EAP wing, according to the leaflet, was the first co-bonded structure of its scale for aerospace purposes up to that point. It was a departure from MD/BAe Harrier GR Mk.5 which featured a composite main wing manufactured with secondary bonding technique, connecting the wing-boxes to a single-piece main wing skin.

eap.png eap_2.png
 
I was wondering does anyone recall artist impressions from the 80s and 90s showing raf typhoons in service sporting a very tornado esque wrap around grey green scheme? Does anyone actually have those images?Am thinking of doing it as a what if model

Regards

Butch
 
I can't help but I'm curious, Butch! I'd love to see them and your model.
 
butch4343 said:
I was wondering does anyone recall artist impressions from the 80s and 90s showing raf typhoons in service sporting a very tornado esque wrap around grey green scheme? Does anyone actually have those images?Am thinking of doing it as a what if model

Regards

Butch
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I don't think so? The EAP, ACA and Eurofighter were very air-to-air focused so it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I've seen what-if models in this camouflage.
 
BAe. ACA. model in camouflage, Air Pictorial 1990


I don't recall seeing any 'official' EFA./Typhoon models painted in green/grey camouflage, happy to be proven wrong tho

Over the years there have been numerous company promotional models of EFA./Typhoon in various schemes, my favourites being a three tone grey wavy camouflage pattern and desert schemed examples for Saudi
 

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From the House of Commons, 2002.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmtrdind/597/2020406.htm

FROM DEMONSTRATOR TO EUROFIGHTER

It is estimated that the £190 million investment in the Experimental Aircraft Programme Technology Demonstrator saved the Industry and Government £850 million in development costs for the resulting Eurofighter and shortened the development time by one year. Similarly, the XG40 Demonstrator for Eurofighter's EJ200 engine cost £135 million but saved £650 million from the development programme. Demonstrators may sometimes appear expensive, but are in fact a fraction of the total development cost—typically less than 10 per cent.


2020402.gif
 
I sort of remember reading the Eap had an early helmet mounted sight/display? Anyone know much about it if it did exist?
 
TsrJoe said:
BAe. ACA. model in camouflage, Air Pictorial 1990


I don't recall seeing any 'official' EFA./Typhoon models painted in green/grey camouflage, happy to be proven wrong tho

Over the years there have been numerous company promotional models of EFA./Typhoon in various schemes, my favourites being a three tone grey wavy camouflage pattern and desert schemed examples for Saudi
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Ah thanks mate, Im sorry I wasnt really clear , I didnt see a model , I intend to build a model, not this was Bae promo add. am sure it had all their products, Hawk 200, Rapier, Stingray Torpedos , Sea Urchin Mines, am sure it was in a airshow programme or maybe an aviation magazine..

Thanks though that photo you posted was really cool

Cheers
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
butch4343 said:
I was wondering does anyone recall artist impressions from the 80s and 90s showing raf typhoons in service sporting a very tornado esque wrap around grey green scheme? Does anyone actually have those images?Am thinking of doing it as a what if model

Regards

Butch
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I don't think so? The EAP, ACA and Eurofighter were very air-to-air focused so it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I've seen what-if models in this camouflage.
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Cheers mate, yeah most of what I saw was the three tone grey scheme, thats probably why the grey green scheme on promo material I saw stuck out.

A bit like some very early Gripen artist impressions that were done in the "viggen" style green splinter cam.


BTW I understand it was always orientated as a A2A first but wasnt there talk in the very early days of it being a Jaguar replacement in the offensive support role? Am thinking that idea was kicking around in the early 80s.

Cheers for the help
 
butch4343 said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
butch4343 said:
I was wondering does anyone recall artist impressions from the 80s and 90s showing raf typhoons in service sporting a very tornado esque wrap around grey green scheme? Does anyone actually have those images?Am thinking of doing it as a what if model

Regards

Butch
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I don't think so? The EAP, ACA and Eurofighter were very air-to-air focused so it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I've seen what-if models in this camouflage.
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Cheers mate, yeah most of what I saw was the three tone grey scheme, thats probably why the grey green scheme on promo material I saw stuck out.

A bit like some very early Gripen artist impressions that were done in the "viggen" style green splinter cam.


BTW I understand it was always orientated as a A2A first but wasnt there talk in the very early days of it being a Jaguar replacement in the offensive support role? Am thinking that idea was kicking around in the early 80s.

Cheers for the help
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Yep, broadly speaking the original requirement was for an aircraft to lug anti-tank weapons around over Germany when the Soviets decided to head west. Some of the earliest studies were basically subsonic bomb trucks. Then the RAF assessed that the Warsaw Pact air threat was much more significant than previously believed, thanks in part to the MiG-29 and Su-27, so the new tactical fighter would need to be capable of winning air superiority.
 
The original requirement (AST 396) was for a STOVL Jaguar and Harrier replacement with secondary air-to-air role.

This was later split into AST 403 for an air-to-air fighter with secondary air-to-ground role, and AST 409 Harrier GR5 meeting the STOVL Harrier replacement role. Increasing capability of Soviet fighters might have played a part, but the German TKF-90 had always been air-to-air focused so it probably also helped unify the requirements for the UK to reverse the primary and secondary roles.
 
Considering that the very initial proposal of the Convair/General Dynamics F-16 was a sort of single seat, fixed wing F-111, I wonder how much Tornado was initially envisioned during the EAP/EF-2000 initial development...
 
Well the likes of P.110 were just basically a Tornado F3 wrapped into a new airframe... To give the tin bashers at Warton and Salmesbury something to sell
 
RLBH said:
butch4343 said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
butch4343 said:
I was wondering does anyone recall artist impressions from the 80s and 90s showing raf typhoons in service sporting a very tornado esque wrap around grey green scheme? Does anyone actually have those images?Am thinking of doing it as a what if model

Regards

Butch
Click to expand...
I don't think so? The EAP, ACA and Eurofighter were very air-to-air focused so it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I've seen what-if models in this camouflage.
Click to expand...
Cheers mate, yeah most of what I saw was the three tone grey scheme, thats probably why the grey green scheme on promo material I saw stuck out.

A bit like some very early Gripen artist impressions that were done in the "viggen" style green splinter cam.


BTW I understand it was always orientated as a A2A first but wasnt there talk in the very early days of it being a Jaguar replacement in the offensive support role? Am thinking that idea was kicking around in the early 80s.

Cheers for the help
Click to expand...
Yep, broadly speaking the original requirement was for an aircraft to lug anti-tank weapons around over Germany when the Soviets decided to head west. Some of the earliest studies were basically subsonic bomb trucks. Then the RAF assessed that the Warsaw Pact air threat was much more significant than previously believed, thanks in part to the MiG-29 and Su-27, so the new tactical fighter would need to be capable of winning air superiority.
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Thats really interesting didnt realise there was such an early emphassis on the A2G role.

I wonder what the original deployment plans looked like, if the cold war hadnt ended, would they have retired the phantoms in RAFG first then re- equipped the UK based sqns , or perhaps it would have been the other way around with the A/C getting bedding at a UK base ( wattisham perhaps) then Germany then the Leuchars wing.

I know obviously the end of the cold war and the delays in the aircraft changed all that.

Cheers
 
butch4343 said:
I wonder what the original deployment plans looked like, if the cold war hadnt ended, would they have retired the phantoms in RAFG first then re- equipped the UK based sqns , or perhaps it would have been the other way around with the A/C getting bedding at a UK base ( wattisham perhaps) then Germany then the Leuchars wing.
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JFC Fuller has done some research, suggesting that the Typhoon would have replaced the Jaguars, RAF Germany's Phantoms, and allowed two squadrons of Tornadoes to be cascaded as Buccaneer replacements.

 

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