The nose made in concrete
cluttonfred said:
Bachem Ba 349 "Natter"
- Thread starter Michel Van
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Michel Van said:
To my opinion, it is just a visualisation of the idea of a manned rocket interceptor and, as it is
shown with rocket armament, a least the problems of aiming and shooting during a very fast
approach to the target were adressed here by Erich Bachem. The Me 163, very fast for its days,
too, actually suffered from the high approach speeds, which gave the pilots only a few seconds
to aim and fire. And even the Mk 108 needed quite a lot of shots to achieve a kill ... if properly
aimed.
And about the astonishment about all those weird projects in Germany at the end of the war,<just
remember: The RLM wasn't the only instance for launching such projects anymore. There was the SS,
a lot of ambitioned airforce officers and of course, the bosses of the aviation industry and even smaller
companies, that used exactly the widespread desperation to get their "projects" launched. The often
vaunted German administration was dissipating into a lo of small parts. The superior regulatory force,
responsible for the whole aviation branch had long been lost.
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windswords said:
The Silverbird was supposed to be launched from a track several kilometers long with a whole cluster of V-2 engines mounted on a sled for propulsion. I think it was fourteen of them all packaged into one reusable module that never left the track. The odds of this working and Silverbird then soaring into near space after theoretically reaching around mach 20 at sea level are not good.
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Hi,
my dear Jemiba displayed a part of Bachem Ba.349 Natter development,and here is the
evolution of Natter aircraft;
http://paralympic-ph.com/germanvtol/natterdesigns/bachem_bp20.html
please note that,they arrange the imagines numbers wrong.
my dear Jemiba displayed a part of Bachem Ba.349 Natter development,and here is the
evolution of Natter aircraft;
http://paralympic-ph.com/germanvtol/natterdesigns/bachem_bp20.html
please note that,they arrange the imagines numbers wrong.
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Wonderful stuff, hesham, very interesting to see how it evolve into more of an airplane than the early piloted rocket sketches. Setting aside its deadly purpose, the Natter has always interested me for it's very simple design (note the elevons) and wooden construction.
lucamax
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Dear friends,
I'm looking for information about the history of the Bachem "Natter" project and I found conflicting indications about the manned flight of the few prototypes built.
In particular, according to David Myhra's book "Bachem Ba 349 Natter - X Planes of the Third Reich Series" (Schiffer publ.), just the model M-23 made on 01/03/1945 the well known and tragical manned flight, but another airplane maybe tried a second piloted test with identical bad luck.
The same author, however, in the book "Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich" (Schiffer publ.) talks about three more successful manned flights in the early March of 1945: do you have more informations about that?
Thanks in advance.
--
Lucamax
I'm looking for information about the history of the Bachem "Natter" project and I found conflicting indications about the manned flight of the few prototypes built.
In particular, according to David Myhra's book "Bachem Ba 349 Natter - X Planes of the Third Reich Series" (Schiffer publ.), just the model M-23 made on 01/03/1945 the well known and tragical manned flight, but another airplane maybe tried a second piloted test with identical bad luck.
The same author, however, in the book "Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich" (Schiffer publ.) talks about three more successful manned flights in the early March of 1945: do you have more informations about that?
Thanks in advance.
--
Lucamax
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lucamax said:
What happen after Lothar Sieber fatal flight in 1 march 1945 ?
They try to tested the B 349 unmanned,
but in April the Allies forces approach the Bachem factory in Baden-Württemberg.
So the SS move the Production and remaining Ba 349 to Bavaria,
Only discover there new site taken by US army also, so they surrender to them and gave the Hardware to US military.
I think not that they had the time for more manned test flights during this 30 days time period.
they had to pack up the production and prototypes and move them, that need time !
lucamax
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Many thanks!
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The description says something like "...la versione aliante per prove di stablita", which the Google translator translates
as "glider version for stability testing"
A skid would have made sense and according to "Bachem Ba 349 Natter" by D. Myhra, there actually was a glider version.
But not with skids, but with wheels ...
(photo from the mentioned book)
as "glider version for stability testing"
A skid would have made sense and according to "Bachem Ba 349 Natter" by D. Myhra, there actually was a glider version.
But not with skids, but with wheels ...
(photo from the mentioned book)
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The new Osprey book on the Ba-349 has a lot of fascinating information on the unmanned and manned test flights. One thing they brought up was that after one fuel was added the pad was washed down with water before the second was added to prevent problems with spillage.
Now imagine the rush to get a dozen or so Natter's airborne in time to intercept. Does anyone see the fueling being hurried and the pad wash being ignored? That could easily lead to catastrophe...
Now imagine the rush to get a dozen or so Natter's airborne in time to intercept. Does anyone see the fueling being hurried and the pad wash being ignored? That could easily lead to catastrophe...
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From what I understand, the launch pole for the Ba 349 would have been very simple, actually
just "a 70 foot pine tree stripped of its bark".
So for a dozen Ba 349 just a dozen poles would have been erected, I think. And after launch
would have been time enough to wash the launch pads.
just "a 70 foot pine tree stripped of its bark".
So for a dozen Ba 349 just a dozen poles would have been erected, I think. And after launch
would have been time enough to wash the launch pads.
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How to land on a skid with a tail fin on the underside ? The draftsman did at least a logical conclusion,
when trying to depict a "glider version", though with great certainty he was wrong.
The actual glider version, as shown by Just had a tail fin ... and so needed an unusual long landing gear.
when trying to depict a "glider version", though with great certainty he was wrong.
The actual glider version, as shown by Just had a tail fin ... and so needed an unusual long landing gear.
Grzesio
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There was such a glider, the M1 prototype, taking off with a three wheeled trolley, equipped with an adjustable trim weight in the nose. Four pictures on a trolley are presented in Brett Gooden's book on the Natter. The glider was intended to be recovered with a parachute (as operational aircraft) and hence had no skid at all, but it did have the lower fin as big as the M3. It made only one flight on November 3, 1944 ending with a crash (due to improperly placed tow attachment point; the pilot safely escaped with a parachute).
This variant is also shown in Justo's drawing above, sadly the trolley is drawn very inaccurately, being generally twice too wide.
The next prototype was already the M3 with wheels.
This variant is also shown in Justo's drawing above, sadly the trolley is drawn very inaccurately, being generally twice too wide.
The next prototype was already the M3 with wheels.
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I think a false sense of desperation is being presented here. One week after D-Day, the Germans began launching the V-1 against England. This was followed by the V-2 which could not be shot down. I think the perspective should be: What if my country was under attack? Would I do everything I could to keep everything going as far as defense? Even unto the last moment? Hitler lost trust in the Army after the 20 July plot and the SS eventually gained control of all secret weapons development. I have seen photos of Fw 190 assembly going on in unused railroad tunnels, of Natters sitting in a field. A new 3D render on the Natter book site shows two MK 108 cannons in the nose (or similar). Shells are visible, with one being larger/different from the other.
Grzesio
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Nice CGI, but was the MK 108 really ejecting cases with belt links still on them? 
There was a mechanism to extract the spent cartridge in the MK 108. See: Rapid Fire: The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine-Guns and Their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces by Anthony Williams.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Germans were REALLY bad in guidance...
Good book
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Patin automatic pilot
ubekistano
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Probable he broke the sound barrel in his vertical fall
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I doubt it tbh, too low for a start and i reckon the structure would not take it anyway. It would take quite a distance to be supersonic with that tech even supposing the aircraft could do that.
Natter: Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Dr. Brett Gooden.
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no
the Walter engine and the four Schmidding SG34 solids had not enough thrust for that
and maximum speed were expected around 800km/h after take off
fonaktamas
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You are not necessarily right:
"The Luftwaffe test pilot Lothar Sieber (7 April 1922 – 1 March 1945) may have inadvertently become the first man to break the sound barrier on 1 March 1945. This occurred while he was piloting a Bachem Ba 349 "Natter" for the first manned vertical takeoff of a rocket in history. In 55 seconds, he traveled a total of 14 km (8.7 miles)."
Sound barrier - Wikipedia
"The Walter liquid-fueled rocket motor built up to full thrust and Sieber pushed the button to ignite the four solid boosters. Initially, it rose vertically. at an altitude of about 100 to 150 m (330 to 490 ft), the Natter suddenly pitched up into an inverted curve at about 30° to the vertical. At about 500 m (1,600 ft) the cockpit canopy was seen to fly off. The Natter continued to climb at high speed at an angle of 15° from the horizontal and disappeared into the clouds. The Walter motor stalled about 15 seconds after take-off. It is estimated the Natter reached 1,500 m (4,900 ft), at which point it nose-dived and hit the ground with great force about 32 seconds later, some kilometres from the launch site. Unknown at the time, one of the Schmidding boosters failed to jettison and its remains were dug up at the crash site in 1998."
Bachem Ba 349 Natter - Wikipedia
The Walter engine has 2000kg and the four Schmidding boosters 4x500kg thrust, but the Natter weighs only 2232kg. This is 1,792 thrust/weight ratio against the Bell XS-1's 0,495 value. OK, I know the Natter has worse aerodinamic design and was a subsonic plane, but not impossible.
Here is another article about this deadly flight:
Historical Footnote: On March 1st 1945, did Lothar Sieber become the first person to break the sound barrier?
Yes, it’s true, Chuck Yaeger probably wasn’t the first person to break the sound barrier in manned flight. On a cloudy day in 1945, accomplished test pilot Lothar Sieber flew a Natter …
united-cats.com
(It wasn't the only event, because Mano Ziegler reported his friend Heini Dittmar's famous flight on 6 July 1944 in the Me 163V-18 (VA+SP) at a speed of 1,130km/h. And Hans Guido Mutke claimed to have broke the sound barrier with his Me 262 on 9 April 1945 also. Without knowledge of the exact flight altitude, among other things, have not been proven.)
HiNatter: Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Dr. Brett Gooden.
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First edition 2006
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