BAC Jaguar Projects

In Tony Buttler's "British Secret Projects 2" (I believe), a project for a Harrier/Jaguar replacement was underway. There were multiple proposals, however, one of them was a heavily modified, heavily modernised Jaguar called the P.97 (I believe, it has been a while since I last checked.) I will upload further details once I've read over the project a bit.
 
That would by the P.97 'Super Jaguar', a November 1976 BAe study for a 'Big Wing' Jaguar powered by twin Rolls-Royce RB.409-07R turbofans (5,965 lbf dry/ 10,150 lbf reheat). This study was aimed as the Harrier/Jaguar replacement requirement AST.403.

Hood noted that the P.97 was also be involve "composite construction, FBW and either RB.409-07 or Adour 63". Does anyone have more on that Rolls-Royce/Turbomeca engine?

See: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/big-wing-jaguar.3309/
 
On a bit of a tangent:

elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com

SEPECAT Jaguar S: Resting Places (XXXVII).

XW563 was the Jaguar S second prototype (S.07). First flown in 1970, this Jaguar went to serve as a Jaguar International demonstrator. Retired in 1977, this storied prototype became for a long whil…
elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com

elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com

SEPECAT Jaguar A: They also served.

The French A variant was less-sophisticated of the basic attack model produced by both SEPECAT partners. The A were also retired earlier, but not before they earned their keep in action. 30 years s…
elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com
 
Recently I was browsing a bit in one of the groups on Facebook, and I came across Jaguar XX979, which was a GR.1 which seems to have been modified to serve as a testbed for the anti-ship variant of the Jag which was eventually used by the Indians. The main noticeable difference is in the nose, which has extended in order to potentially house the radar necessary for locking onto a target. This is highly interesting as I had never realised that such an aircraft existed in UK colours. For context, the latter two images were taken when the aircraft was with the A&AEE.

Weapons included in the display below are:
Paveway LGBs
AGM-84 Harpoons
AM.39 Exocet
R.550 Magic
AIM-9 Sidewinder (most likely Limas)
Matra Durandals
SNEB rockets
BL.755
various General Purpose bombs

It must be noted that many of these must be mockups and it is possible that these are there in order to show what the aircraft is capable of carrying, rather than showing what was integrated with the weapons. It is also likely that some weapons may not be displayed, such as Sea Eagle, which was the weapon chosen for use on the Indian Jaguars in this configuration, as far as I can remember.

XX979 was reduced to spares, but the cockpit survives at the Neatished Radar Museum.

If you have any information or images featuring this aircraft, please post it below. Any help is greatly appreciated.

(All credits for the photos go to their respective owners)
 

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alertken said:
If UK had taken junior slot on AFVG, and tried, solo, a multi-role lighter combat/advanced trainer, P.45-ish... then as it slipped and bloated, might we have taken a T-38/F-5E package?
Click to expand...
T-38 trainer, sure.

F-5E was supposed to be a plane for unsophisticated countries to buy or build, there would be an immense amount of screaming from the various manufacturers about how insulting it was to operate a plane intended for 3rd world powers.
 
Jason Dykstra (Wyvern) said:
Recently I was browsing a bit in one of the groups on Facebook, and I came across Jaguar XX979, which was a GR.1 which seems to have been modified to serve as a testbed for the anti-ship variant of the Jag which was eventually used by the Indians. The main noticeable difference is in the nose, which has extended in order to potentially house the radar necessary for locking onto a target. This is highly interesting as I had never realised that such an aircraft existed in UK colours. For context, the latter two images were taken when the aircraft was with the A&AEE.

Weapons included in the display below are:
Paveway LGBs
AGM-84 Harpoons
AM.39 Exocet
R.550 Magic
AIM-9 Sidewinder (most likely Limas)
Matra Durandals
SNEB rockets
BL.755
various General Purpose bombs

It must be noted that many of these must be mockups and it is possible that these are there in order to show what the aircraft is capable of carrying, rather than showing what was integrated with the weapons. It is also likely that some weapons may not be displayed, such as Sea Eagle, which was the weapon chosen for use on the Indian Jaguars in this configuration, as far as I can remember.

XX979 was reduced to spares, but the cockpit survives at the Neatished Radar Museum.

If you have any information or images featuring this aircraft, please post it below. Any help is greatly appreciated.

(All credits for the photos go to their respective owners)
Click to expand...
Over a year later and completely by chance, I found a new photo with weapons under the hardpoints, probably dummies.
www.airhistory.net

Aircraft Photo of XX979 | Sepecat Jaguar GR1A | UK - Air Force | AirHistory.net #546163

Aircraft photo of XX979 / 244 - Sepecat Jaguar GR1A - UK - Air Force, taken by Jan Makkus at Paris - Le Bourget (LFPB / LBG) in France on 5 June 1981 during the Paris Air Show 1981.
www.airhistory.net www.airhistory.net

1714252202676.png
 
In the second F-X competition in Japan in 1968, Jaguar was one of nine candidates.

Was there a fighter version of the Jaguar being planned at that time, just for exports?

Those nine candidates were:

F-111
F-4E
CL-1010 (F-104S)
F-5
P-530
Mirage F1 (J79/J1Q engine)
Lightning
Jaguar
Saab 37 Viggen

IMG_3025.jpeg
 
datafuser said:
In the second F-X competition in Japan in 1968, Jaguar was one of nine candidates.

Was there a fighter version of the Jaguar being planned at that time, just for exports?

Those nine candidates were:

F-111
F-4E
CL-1010 (F-104S)
F-5
P-530
Mirage F1 (J79/J1Q engine)
Lightning
Jaguar
Saab 37 Viggen

View attachment 732316
Click to expand...
Who on earth thought that Japan would buy an F-111?!?
 
SK2 said:
Probably right before the F-111B was cancelled...
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Maybe. That's the only version of the F-111 I can see even slightly interesting Japan, so they can set up BARCAP flights.

But I cannot see Japan buying the AIM-54 missiles at over a million dollars each, which means you don't need the AWG-9 radar, either. So the "F-111BJ" would be majorly different from the USN F-111B due to radar fit, would basically be an F-4J with the AWG10 or an F-4C/D/E. And Japan ended up with simplified F-4Es.

More or less the same reason the UK bought F-4s instead of F-14s. Too cheap to buy the right missiles for the job, so they don't need the good radar either. And if you're not buying Phoenix or AWG9, you don't need a Tomcat at all.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Maybe. That's the only version of the F-111 I can see even slightly interesting Japan, so they can set up BARCAP flights.

But I cannot see Japan buying the AIM-54 missiles at over a million dollars each, which means you don't need the AWG-9 radar, either. So the "F-111BJ" would be majorly different from the USN F-111B due to radar fit, would basically be an F-4J with the AWG10 or an F-4C/D/E. And Japan ended up with simplified F-4Es.

More or less the same reason the UK bought F-4s instead of F-14s. Too cheap to buy the right missiles for the job, so they don't need the good radar either. And if you're not buying Phoenix or AWG9, you don't need a Tomcat at all.
Click to expand...

According to that Air Review article, six types below were eliminated in the first round because:

F-111: perceived as "too offensive" - could double as a bomber

F-5: judged to be not better than the F-104J

Jaguar: not better than the F-104J

Lightning: out of production soon

Saab 37 Viggen: not better than the F-104J in terms of climb performance and level flight speed

P530: paper plane

IMG_3031.jpeg
 
I have to say that trawling through the archives I've found lots of references of interest from all kinds of nations regarding the Jaguar during the 1960s but almost nothing about Japanese interest, not even in passing.
I found a reference to loaning some trainers as an interim until the T-2 was ready, but that's it.
So I'm sceptical unless something more concrete than a magazine article comes to light.

Also there are two versions of Jaguar - the A and S, so depends which they were thinking of. Neither had radar of course, BAC did look at radars, but it wasn't a serious proposal at this time (1968). None of the French sets of the time would fit, so probably would have been AIRPASS.
 
Possible Exports ?, Air Pictorial, December 1966

Possible Lease ?, Jaguar T.2 for Japan ? ... Flying Review International, March 1969
 

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the 'Mirage like' photo nose is interesting as is the 2 seat strike design (the latter im not sure iv seen depicted elsewhere ?)
 

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Hood said:
I have to say that trawling through the archives I've found lots of references of interest from all kinds of nations regarding the Jaguar during the 1960s but almost nothing about Japanese interest, not even in passing.
I found a reference to loaning some trainers as an interim until the T-2 was ready, but that's it.
So I'm sceptical unless something more concrete than a magazine article comes to light.

Also there are two versions of Jaguar - the A and S, so depends which they were thinking of. Neither had radar of course, BAC did look at radars, but it wasn't a serious proposal at this time (1968). None of the French sets of the time would fit, so probably would have been AIRPASS.
Click to expand...

That the JASDF sent a fact-finding team to the makers of those 9 types appears in the transcript of the Japanese parliament debate on 3 April 1968.


○政府委員（島田豊君）　調査の対象といたしました機種は九機種でございます。申し上げますと、アメリカの航空機としましてはＦ１１１、Ｆ４、それからＣＬ系列機、それからＦ５、Ｎ５３０、それからフランスでミラージュ(Mirage)系列機とジャガー(Jaguar)でございます。それからスウェーデンでビゲン(Viggen)、イギリスでライトニング(Lightning)でございます。　その機体関係のメーカーとしましては、いまの順序で申し上げますと、Ｆ１１１がゼネラル・ダイナミックス、Ｆ４Ｅがマグダネル・ダグラス、それからＣＬ系列機がこれはロッキードでございます。それからＦ５がノースロップ社、それからＮ５３０、これもノースロップでございます。それからミラージュ(Mirage)は、これはフランスのマルセル・ダッソーでございます。それからジャガー(Jaguar)、これは英仏共同でつくっております会社でございまして、セペカット(SEPECAT)という会社でございます。それからスウェーデンのビゲン(Viggen)、これはサーブ社でございます。それからイギリスのライトニング(Lightning)は、ＢＡＣ、こういう会社でございます。　エンジンの基数につきましては、Ｆ１１１が二基でございます。ＣＬ系列機が一基でございます。それからＦ５が二基でございます。Ｎ５３０、これが二基、ミラージュ(Mirage)が、これが一基でございます。それからジャガー(Jaguar)が二基でございます。ビゲン(Viggen)が一基でございます。それからライトニング(Lightning)が二基と、こういう状況でございます。　なお、座席の数につきましては、Ｆ１１１とＦ４、これが座席が二つございまして、それ以外は全部一つでございます。
 
datafuser said:
That the JASDF sent a fact-finding team to the makers of those 9 types appears in the transcript of the Japanese parliament debate on 3 April 1968.


○政府委員（島田豊君）　調査の対象といたしました機種は九機種でございます。申し上げますと、アメリカの航空機としましてはＦ１１１、Ｆ４、それからＣＬ系列機、それからＦ５、Ｎ５３０、それからフランスでミラージュ(Mirage)系列機とジャガー(Jaguar)でございます。それからスウェーデンでビゲン(Viggen)、イギリスでライトニング(Lightning)でございます。　その機体関係のメーカーとしましては、いまの順序で申し上げますと、Ｆ１１１がゼネラル・ダイナミックス、Ｆ４Ｅがマグダネル・ダグラス、それからＣＬ系列機がこれはロッキードでございます。それからＦ５がノースロップ社、それからＮ５３０、これもノースロップでございます。それからミラージュ(Mirage)は、これはフランスのマルセル・ダッソーでございます。それからジャガー(Jaguar)、これは英仏共同でつくっております会社でございまして、セペカット(SEPECAT)という会社でございます。それからスウェーデンのビゲン(Viggen)、これはサーブ社でございます。それからイギリスのライトニング(Lightning)は、ＢＡＣ、こういう会社でございます。　エンジンの基数につきましては、Ｆ１１１が二基でございます。ＣＬ系列機が一基でございます。それからＦ５が二基でございます。Ｎ５３０、これが二基、ミラージュ(Mirage)が、これが一基でございます。それからジャガー(Jaguar)が二基でございます。ビゲン(Viggen)が一基でございます。それからライトニング(Lightning)が二基と、こういう状況でございます。　なお、座席の数につきましては、Ｆ１１１とＦ４、これが座席が二つございまして、それ以外は全部一つでございます。
Click to expand...
Gee - thanks for that oriental data dump...
 
Machine translation:
Government Commissioner (Shimada Yutaka): Nine aircraft types were the subject of the investigation. For American aircraft, there is the F111, F4, CL series, F5, and N530, and from France, there is the Mirage series and Jaguar. Then there is the Swedish Viggen, and from the UK, the Lightning. As for the manufacturers of the aircraft, in that order, the F111 is made by General Dynamics, the F4E by McDonnell Douglas, and the CL series by Lockheed. Then the F5 by Northrop, and the N530, also by Northrop. Then the Mirage is made by Marcel Dassault of France. Then there is Jaguar, which is made by a joint British-French company called SEPECAT. Then there is the Swedish Viggen, which is made by Saab. And the British Lightning is made by a company called BAC. In terms of the number of engines, there are two F111s, one CL series aircraft, two F5s, two N530s, one Mirage, two Jaguars, one Viggen, and two Lightnings. In terms of the number of seats, the F111 and F4 have two seats, and all the others have one seat.
Click to expand...
 
It's plausible that the Br-121C might have proceeded as a Fighter version of the Jaguar. Had the navalisation proceeded instead of being cancelled.
But arguably that would require some continuation of RN CATOBAR fast jet planning to make it affordable.
An intriguing Alternative History Scenario.
If I reccal the UK side did insist on quite a high performance wing for the aircraft.
 
datafuser said:
That the JASDF sent a fact-finding team to the makers of those 9 types appears in the transcript of the Japanese parliament debate on 3 April 1968.
Click to expand...
Many thanks, I was unaware of that visit.
 
Title should be SEPECAT Jaguar, not "BAC Jaguar". Especially as the final design owes so much to the Breguet Br. 121C "Super Taon".
 
Scott Kenny said:
But I cannot see Japan buying the AIM-54 missiles at over a million dollars each, which means you don't need the AWG-9 radar, either. So the "F-111BJ" would be majorly different from the USN F-111B due to radar fit, would basically be an F-4J with the AWG10 or an F-4C/D/E. And Japan ended up with simplified F-4Es.
Click to expand...

AWG-9 was a lot more than just an AIM-54 guider, in fact it was USN policy to use it with AIM-7 against fighters. It had phenomenal ECM burn-through, look-down and TWS. All of which would have been valuable to the JASDF ( or RAF for that matter ) even in the absence of AIM-54.
 
TsrJoe said:
the 'Mirage like' photo nose is interesting as is the 2 seat strike design (the latter im not sure iv seen depicted elsewhere ?)
Click to expand...
Do you have higher Rez versions for this scans? That's an awesome article
 
Kiltonge said:
AWG-9 was a lot more than just an AIM-54 guider, in fact it was USN policy to use it with AIM-7 against fighters. It had phenomenal ECM burn-through, look-down and TWS. All of which would have been valuable to the JASDF ( or RAF for that matter ) even in the absence of AIM-54.
Click to expand...
Yet RAF didn't want to pay for AWG-9 since they weren't getting Phoenix.
 
Kiltonge said:
AWG-9 was a lot more than just an AIM-54 guider, in fact it was USN policy to use it with AIM-7 against fighters. It had phenomenal ECM burn-through, look-down and TWS. All of which would have been valuable to the JASDF ( or RAF for that matter ) even in the absence of AIM-54.
Click to expand...

There was also a version of Sparrow adapted for the F-111D, which in turn suggests that the Vark could be modified to a fighter role without going all the way to AWG-9/F-111B. Probably not a great fighter, but interesting as a high-endurance CAP aircraft with pretty good transonic acceleration.

Post in thread 'AIM-7 Sparrow' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aim-7-sparrow.31904/post-527653
 
TomS said:
There was also a version of Sparrow adapted for the F-111D, which in turn suggests that the Vark could be modified to a fighter role without going all the way to AWG-9/F-111B. Probably not a great fighter, but interesting as a high-endurance CAP aircraft with pretty good transonic acceleration.

Post in thread 'AIM-7 Sparrow' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aim-7-sparrow.31904/post-527653
Click to expand...
The F-111D had modified intakes that were less susceptible to flameouts and a supposedly more capable multimode radar, so adapting the Sparrow made some sense, especially with Vietnam ongoing. It actually is surprising that such an inexpensively modified AIM-7F would have been considered a separate AIM-7G. Perhaps there was broader intent for the program at some point? In the end, it was cancelled before the full scale of the development disaster of the F-111D became apparent. They produced an entire fighter wing and they were all parked until some time in the Ford Administration.

It’s good to be reminded of these things occasionally. Sadly, after backsliding with the simpler F-111E after the -D disaster, the definitive F-111F was quite useful.
 

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