The AX Competition (rivals and development of the Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II)

[TinWing]

Wasn't AX an Air Force specification? Why would LTV's contender be labeled "Navy", then? Unless it was a prior design that they had initially submitted for a Navy competition and didn't bother to modify the model, maybe?

You really have to look back to the Vietnam era to understand the AX requirement. Some would argue that the eventual A-10 was the direct replacement for the Skyraider. Obviously, the mission changed with the drawdown and end of the Vietnam war, but at the time the requirement was conceived, there might have been a very real possibility of a Navy purchase.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Wonder if these Vought studies fit for AX too?

The first design has several similarities to the jet design.

 

[fightingirish]

Early AX concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Edit: The first picture "A-10_early_concept_1" was rotated 90 degrees clockwise and lightened up.

 

[The Artist]

Early Fairchild A-10A concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Is it just how I'm seeing it, or is the canopy offset in the Concept 2 illustration?

 

[prolific1]

It certainly appears offset but I imagine it's an error in perspective from the illustrator.

 

[Sundog]

Also, the first picture should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. At least I assume it was painted with the intent of the roofs of the buildings to be toward the top of the picture and not the side. Also, any idea on the Manufacturer of the two designs? The second sort of reminds me of the early ADDAX design, but of course, IIRC, the AX predates the ADDAX designs.

 

[Triton]

Artist's impression of Fairchild-Hiller FH-129.


Source: From the Archives at Grumman Memorial Park Calverton, Long Island, New York or The Cradle of Aviation Museum, Garden City, Long Island via Warbird Information Exchange forum.
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13327&sid=e177db591145400868f4796c686cb7c3&start=780

 

[Triton]

Photographs of Fairchild Hiller AX wind tunnel testing.

Source: From the Archives at Grumman Memorial Park Calverton, Long Island, New York or The Cradle of Aviation Museum, Garden City, Long Island via Warbird Information Exchange forum.
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13327&sid=e177db591145400868f4796c686cb7c3&start=780

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

1967 General Dynamics (Convair) AX model tested in NASA 7 X 10-Foot High Speed Tunnel.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/mw/images/7/75/1967_Ray_%26_Phillips_Close_Air_Support_%28A-X%29_Airplane_Model.pdf

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

1967 McDonnell-Douglas AX model tested in NASA 7 X 10-Foot High Speed Tunnel.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/mw/images/0/0a/1967_Lockwood_%26Philllips_Close_Air_Support_%28A-X%29_Airplane_Model.pdf

[Photos removed - better versions below - Admin]

 

[Pioneer]

Wow Overscan - great find! Great pics and drawings
You have been a busy man!!

Thanks heaps

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This appears to be Grumman's design, albeit without the triple vertical fins.

Subsonic wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered twin-turboprop airplane model with a wing aspect ratio of 6.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062792_1973062792.pdf

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

McDonnell-Douglas AX, better photos.

Wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered subsonic twin-engine attack airplane model having an unswept wing of aspect ratio 5.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062795_1973062795.pdf

 

[Stargazer]

McDonnell's AX was known inhouse as the Model 206.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Early Fairchild A-10A concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Edit: The first picture "A-10_early_concept_1" was rotated 90 degrees clockwise and lightened up.

Reading American Secret Projects: Bombers, Attack and Anti-Submarine Aircraft it struck me that this design seems to be the General Dynamics (Convair San Diego) Model 70 AX.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This appears to be Grumman's design, albeit without the triple vertical fins.

Subsonic wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered twin-turboprop airplane model with a wing aspect ratio of 6.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062792_1973062792.pdf

Thanks to Tony Buttler's new American Secret Projects book, I can identify this wind tunnel model as the Grumman Model 450-8.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Greetings All -

Last week's visit to the Vought Archives was enjoyable and I managed to scan and copy a number of drawings and photograph a few of the display models in their possession. One of Vought's AX proposals/concepts was the L12-CAS-AX-186 which reminds of an A-4 (sort of) with over wing engine nacelles. Attached is a drawing of the aircraft and I'll post some photos of the model in their collection later. I'm still trying to work out the V# for this design.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Some similarities to the V-502-11 jet AX design depicted in American Secret Projects :Bombers, but this study seems aimed at higher speed.

 

[Barrington Bond]

From AW&ST 1 December 1969.

[Removed - see better copy of image later in thread - Admin]

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From RyanCrierie's Flickr Photostream.

Ryan Crierie

Explore Ryan Crierie’s 4,244 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

The first is a beautiful copy of the previously known image of the Grumman D450 AX design. The second drawing seems to be the same design but drawn in a very different style. Scaled down to suit forum - 600dpi originals on Flickr.

 

[Nico]

Hi fellows,
reviewing some of the fascinatin posts about the AX/A-10 development, I saw some pictures of the engineers that worked with the programme. In some my old notes I found that at the time the chief engineer at Fairchild-Republic was an Eng. J. Williamson (John, Jonathan, James or?) and a quotation for an unknown issue of 'Aviation Week' telling that the project engineer for A-10 was an Eng. Tizio (yes, I know that in Italian parlance a tizio is something Mr. Idontknowhim, but the article on Av Week referred really to and Engineer Tizio).
Anyone can tell something more about the design staff of the A-10 (and, hopefully, the manufacturer's designation of the aircraft and of the A-9? Sorry, I didnt checked the 'Designations' page, but if I close this message I lost totally it and I have to rewrite again...).


Nico

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

You mean "A-10 Programme Director" Vincent Tizio presumably.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

According to Gunston's "Attack Aircraft of the West" Robert Sanator was the lead AX engineer.

 

[Nico]

Thank you Overscan,
I often forget the book of Bill the Great (my home is too small to contain in an ordinate mode all the books I have).
Yes, Tizio is Vincent Tizio, quoted in an article published on Aviation Week probably in early seventies of the last century. Unfortunately, some years ago I decided to destroy all my AWST collection (I was a reader of the magazine since 1967 and only now I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy).
Nico

 

[Pioneer]

Thank you Overscan,
I often forget the book of Bill the Great (my home is too small to contain in an ordinate mode all the books I have).
Yes, Tizio is Vincent Tizio, quoted in an article published on Aviation Week probably in early seventies of the last century. Unfortunately, some years ago I decided to destroy all my AWST collection (I was a reader of the magazine since 1967 and only now I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy).
Nico

"destroy"

:'(

"I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy"

I hear and feel your pain brother

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Nico]

Hi,
researching the ever fascinating and never-ending story of the search of a light attack aircraft for US armed forces, I found the reproduction of two advertising appeared on 'Aviation Week' (unfortunately no date): at the time I dismissed the impressions appearing on the Avco Lycoming ads as fictional but now I think that the unknown artist depicted al least some real contending proposal. In the upper part we can see the Grumman design, and perhaps the middle drawing on the LTC4B-12 ad is the Boeing Verol project. Instead I'm unable to identify the twin turbofan projects and the twin-boom twin turboprop is absoluely new to me and could be fictional.
Nico

 

[Stargazer]

Sweet serendipity!! Thanks for sharing. I've enhanced all the above and tried to identify them, but it's not easy. The third one has something very Northrop-ish about it but doesn't look like the three Northrop-related AX designs I have. The fourth one looks like it could be an alternate version of the first one.

 

[Nico]

Early Fairchild A-10A concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Edit: The first picture "A-10_early_concept_1" was rotated 90 degrees clockwise and lightened up.

Hi fightingirish, casually, I found this brochure of the Vought MGM-52A Lance missile (I suppose dating back to 1971 circa). Don't you think that the artist could be the same for the two impressions (early Fairchild-Republic A-10 and Lance) or simply the two artist follows the fashion of the moment? Unfortunately the Lance artwork is unsigned and we can't say if the same artist worked for the two firms or simply we have two artist of the same school
Nico

 

[Stargazer]

This style of artwork was pretty popular in the latter part of the 1960s and the early 1970s. It was found all over in advertising.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Found via the French version of Wikipedia:

"General Electric GAU-8/A displayed next to a Volkswagen Beetle for size comparison". [IMAGE CREDIT: USAF/ Wikimedia Commons]​

 

[Stargazer]

I have attempted to rework and enhance the profile a bit:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Supposedly the AX design was based on earlier tilt-wing work e.g. the Model 147 proposed to AAFSS (AH-56 Cheyenne requirement). It was not tilt-wing however.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

McDonnell-Douglas's AX design was Model 206.

 

[Pioneer]

Please excuse my ignorance, but is this (pictured below) a Fairchild-Republic early A-10 design study? ??? ?

And the Fairchild-Hiller design that actually won the AX comp - the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2615.msg109820.html#msg109820

 

[Stargazer]

No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

And yet the Model 70 is always shown with pod-mounted engines under the wings. Here the engines are blended into the wing, which doesn't appear on any of the other AX pictures we have had so far...

the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

I believe this is only an assumption based on the fake "FH-129" buzz number that appears on the aircraft's nose in one of Fairchild Republic's paintings.

 

[Stargazer]

No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

On second thought, and after browsing through the whole topic once again, I believe what we have here is the CESSNA design.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2615.msg59490.html#msg59490

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

And yet the Model 70 is always shown with pod-mounted engines under the wings. Here the engines are blended into the wing, which doesn't appear on any of the other AX pictures we have had so far...

the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

I believe this is only an assumption based on the fake "FH-129" buzz number that appears on the aircraft's nose in one of Fairchild Republic's paintings.

"FH-100" appears on a Fairchild F-X model, giving this more credibility.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

On second thought, and after browsing through the whole topic once again, I believe what we have here is the CESSNA design.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2615.msg59490.html#msg59490

I think you need a new pair of glasses, Stephane


Here's why I think its a version of the Convair Model 70, with the engine pods moved up slightly into the wings (see attached)

Tony's book has General Dynamics Fort Worth AX, Grumman twin turbofan Model 450-4 (eerily similar to the A-10), 2 more Lockheed AX designs, North American NA-339...

 

[Stargazer]

I think you need a new pair of glasses, Stephane
Here's why I think its a version of the Convair Model 70, with the engine pods moved up slightly into the wings (see attached)

Agreed. The aircraft's general lines and proportions all converge toward the Convair Model 70. I can't argue with that! You'll have to admit though that the engine installation is extremely different from the various images we have of that design. Hence my (false) assumption that it might have been Cessna (I realize of course that the latter's lines are different).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes - it is most likely an earlier version of the design given that a desk model of the podded engine version exists which means its probably the submission design.