AW249 Fenice: Informations and possible future versions

[kqcke for you]

It is a wonder why the French are bothered about the Tiger MK3 after all the trouble of the Australian Tiger fleet. The French and Germans should have ditched the Tiger program and just bought the MAngusta and made that the European attack helicopter. It is far superior to the Tiger to begin with.

What made it better than Tiger?

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

What made it better than Tiger?

better weapons, more weapons, better protection, better avionic, the ability to launch loitering munitions and mini uav (the tiger mk3 will be able to control them not launch them).
The advantage of the tiger are very few, for example it is faster (280 km/h vs 261 km/h) and it has a 30 mm cannon (altought I don't know if that can be called an advanatge because the 20 mm of the Aw24). Aside than those, I cannot spot any other advantage. The normal Tiger was alredy in an unfavorable position when compared to the Mangusta so I don't think that even the MKIII version could stand a chance if compared to the AW249.

 

[kqcke for you]

better weapons,

What? They have the same based on user preferences.

more weapons,

No except maybe if we count the turkish weapon integreated into the system.

better protection,

As i don't know anything about it i can't say mutch about it.

better avionic,

Hard to argue for me as i don't have any details about both's avionics.

the ability to launch loitering munitions and mini uav (the tiger mk3 will be able to control them not launch them).

Source for that? Because i can't find anything about Mangusta doing anything like that.

The advantage of the tiger are very few, for example it is faster (280 km/h vs 261 km/h) and it has a 30 mm cannon (altought I don't know if that can be called an advanatge because the 20 mm of the Aw24).

More like a question of preferences as they have similiar amount of ammunition and capabilitys.

Aside than those, I cannot spot any other advantage. The Tiger (the normal one, not the MKIII one) was alredy in an unfavorable position when compared to the Mangusta.

And what is this unfavorable position?

 

[FighterJock]

The Tiger's cannon can swivel as I have just found out on this YouTube video TomcatVIP.

 

[TomcatViP]

Oh, it can. But they had some reliability problems that forced them to limit it in operations to basically a fixed firing position a-la Mil Mi35 , and then gradually relieving the restrictions.
Deleted my earlier post as this is not a thread dedicated to the EC665

THE NEW NEXTER TURRET, A KNDS COMPANY, TAKES OFF WITH THE UPGRADED TIGER

• The turret's lateral displacement has been increased and its weight reduced thanks to modernized electronics;
• It will enter service in 2028.

A turret adapted to the upgraded Tiger
Nexter, a KNDS company, is enhancing the performance of its THL30 turret for upgraded Tiger helicopters, the new standard developed by Airbus Helicopters on behalf of OCCAR, and financed by the French and Spanish governments. This work is focused primarily on increasing its lateral clearance to enable it to engage targets at more than 90° to either side.

https://www.knds.fr/en/our-news/latest-news/new-nexter-turret-knds-company-takes-upgraded-tiger

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

What? They have the same based on user preferences.

No except maybe if we count the turkish weapon integreated into the system.

As i don't know anything about it i can't say mutch about it.

Hard to argue for me as i don't have any details about both's avionics.

Source for that? Because i can't find anything about Mangusta doing anything like that.

More like a question of preferences as they have similiar amount of ammunition and capabilitys.

And what is this unfavorable position?

1) I'm talking about the AW249, wich can take up to 16 atgm (the tiger can only take up to 8)
2) Spike ER2 with 16 km range are far better compared to Hellfire and spike ER1 wich has half of the range (same goes for the turkish umtas missile, at least the current version)
5) I was again talking about the 249, wich has this capability. I only made a comparison between tiger and mangusta at the end, the others advantage I stated were referred to the 249.
6) we both agree on this
7) The main problem of the Tiger as you probably know, compared to the mangusta at least, were the reliability probelm, wich turned out to be the reason why both germany and australia are ditching them. Wile speaking about general performances, they are pretty similar, with the mangusta being better in some field and the tigers being better in some others.

 

[yasotay]

The presentation demonstrates that Leonardo has every expectation to remain competitive in the military rotorcraft market. Modern attack helicopters have to be able to work in the Information realm as well as the kinetic realm in modern combat. Far more so than at the turn of the century. I suspect that the 249 came about because the long serving 129 just could not jam all of the required equipment into its relatively small space.
Certainly appears to have what it will take to be competitive on the market. The real challenge I suspect, like other new programs, will be to be able to retain all of the capabilities while also keeping things relatively simple maintenance wise for non-industrial nations that might be in the market.
I expect in the age of hunter/killer drones, all attack helicopters will be forced to move to longer ranged ATGM and launched effects of some sort. Russia has begun transitioning to Lemur (sp) the United States is moving to Spike NLOS and JAGM long range.
Wonderful pictures! Thank you.

 

[Kiltonge]

I suspect that the 249 came about because the long serving 129 just could not jam all of the required equipment into its relatively small space.

The 129 was always too small to be truly considered an attack helicopter rather than a scout. Consider when it first flew in 1986 it had barely 1,200 shp and its leisurely development saw it enter service in 1990 with half the power of an AH-64, basic sensors, no laser ATGMs, mediocre armour and still no turreted gun. It was another 20 years before it got upgraded engines!

The market's lack of response to the A129 said it all. It offered little benefit over a Bo-105 or other small cabin heli.

 

[ST21]

It is a wonder why the French are bothered about the Tiger MK3 after all the trouble of the Australian Tiger fleet.

French experience with the Tiger has been positive. They notably used it in combat in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali (which is one of the toughest environments for helicopter operations) and it performed very well. Why would they care what the Australians do?

The French and Germans should have ditched the Tiger program and just bought the MAngusta and made that the European attack helicopter. It is far superior to the Tiger to begin with.

A baseless assertion. The original Mangusta was not superior to the Tiger in any way...

 

[kqcke for you]

1) I'm talking about the AW249, wich can take up to 16 atgm (the tiger can only take up to 8)
2) Spike ER2 with 16 km range are far better compared to Hellfire and spike ER1 wich has half of the range (same goes for the turkish umtas missile, at least the current version)
5) I was again talking about the 249, wich has this capability. I only made a comparison between tiger and mangusta at the end, the others advantage I stated were referred to the 249.
6) we both agree on this
7) The main problem of the Tiger as you probably know, compared to the mangusta at least, were the reliability probelm, wich turned out to be the reason why both germany and australia are ditching them. Wile speaking about general performances, they are pretty similar, with the mangusta being better in some field and the tigers being better in some others.

Yeah but you meant before that even the Mangusta is better to which i ask why (should have wroten that in the question but i tought it would be obvious).
Which makes 1-5 the same and 7 is probaly more an problem made by saving on parts for example and the missing investments which makes everything with the low numbers even more expensive.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

A baseless assertion. The original Mangusta was not superior to the Tiger in any way...

Depend wich Tiger are You referring to. For example, initially the French tigre, the HAP, was not fitted with any atgm as it was intended for anty infantry porpouse only and was only upgraded a lot of years later with hellfire. The german one was equipped with hot3, a similar missile to the TOW2 used by the Mangusta (that was also integrated with the hellfire and HOT3 as well, it was just never used in combat). So no, if you compare the ealry mangusta with the early tiger it could only be compared to the german one, as the french one was utterly underequipped.

 

[kqcke for you]

Depend wich Tiger are You referring to. For example, initially the French tigre, the HAP, was not fitted with any atgm as it was intended for anty infantry porpouse only and was only upgraded a lot of years later with hellfire. The german one was equipped with hot3, a similar missile to the TOW2 used by the Mangusta (that was also integrated with the hellfire and HOT3 as well, it was just never used in combat). So no, if you compare the ealry mangusta with the early tiger it could only be compared to the german one, as the french one was utterly underequipped.

That was because of the goverment and not because Tiger couldnt take it. Just like the german doesn't have an 30mm gun but the Osiris optic system. And later Trigat LR when it was finnished.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

That was because of the goverment and not because Tiger couldnt take it. Just like the german doesn't have an 30mm gun but the Osiris optic system. And later Trigat LR when it was finnished.

I'm not saying the tigre could have not be integrated with atgm's earlyer, but as You said that didn't happened mainly because the French governament choices, since they wanted a second version for anty tank role only named HAD (later cancelled due to budget issues).

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

no laser ATGMs,

It offered little benefit over a Bo-105 or other small cabin heli.

- it was integrated with laser atgm at that time, they were just never used in service
- It offered far better optics, better missiles, more missiles, 2x the number of hardpoints, better speed/manouvrability and a better selection of weapons
If You really want to compare the early Mangusta with something, Bo105 or any other utility helo converted for anty tank role will be a bad candidate

 

[ST21]

Depend wich Tiger are You referring to. For example, initially the French tigre, the HAP, was not fitted with any atgm as it was intended for anty infantry porpouse only and was only upgraded a lot of years later with hellfire. The german one was equipped with hot3, a similar missile to the TOW2 used by the Mangusta (that was also integrated with the hellfire and HOT3 as well, it was just never used in combat). So no, if you compare the ealry mangusta with the early tiger it could only be compared to the german one, as the french one was utterly underequipped.

Fundamentally, the Tiger is a more modern design than the Mangusta which shouldnt be surprising since its a newer helicopter. All-composite airframe, low radar cross section and infrared signature, much more powerful engines and sophisticated avionics. Just compare the cockpits of early Tigers and early Mangustas and see the difference. Tiger comes with full glass cockpit with two MFDs (for both pilot and gunner) while the cockpit on the Mangusta is fairly austere and old fashioned in comparison. Hence some of the reasons that it cannot be claimed that the Mangusta is superior to the Tiger.

The AW249 Fenice is an entirely different animal though. It seems like a well-run program (not suggesting that the A129 wasnt ) and a promising new attack helicopter. I am curious to see it enter service and, hopefully, it will be an export success.

 

[F-14ATomcat]

Yeah, I hope we will see more than 48 249 in future (also I didn't understand the part regarding the upgraded units, what they want to do, retrofit the ptototypes and the pre production units?).

I understand Italian but I am not native to the beautiful italian language, but for what I understood they will retrofit the old ones to the new built standards, however I think I am right.

 

[H_K]

I understand Italian but I am not native to the beautiful italian language, but for what I understood they will retrofit the old ones to the new built standards, however I think I am right.

What they mean is that they will bring the initial 7 AW249 ordered to the same « final operating standard » as the 12 in this latest order.

The AW249 is a new, much larger, helicopter with almost no commonality to the smaller AW129, so it would be impossible to retrofit the old AW129s and turn them into AW249s.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

So Guys I have received great news again for the AW249. In the new book of coccarde tricolori, many new details were showcased:

- we finally know the top Speed, wich Is 309 km/h (A great improvment over the A129, wich had a max speed of 253 km/h)
- a full picture of all the displays of the cockpit was showed, were It Is possible to see all it's similarity with the F35.
- a total of 4 different sight were tested but unfortunatly we do not know wich model was tested (we can assume that out of these 4 the toplite was tested too)
- a very big news Is that apparently Leonardo Is working on something similar to an APS for the AW249, a sistem that will launch mini missiles against incoming threats such as drones (and the AW249 will be the first heli to mount this sistem)
- apparently It will be able to land on water thanks to floaters (because why not)
- for now, a total of 49 helicopters were confirmed (1 prototype + 48 serial units)
- It will have a small navigation radar and a lidar
And many more info were released regarding the link and the avionics.

 

[TomcatViP]

Regarding the APS, Would that be that rocket pods we have pointed early? Some pictures suggest a launch tube larger than any usual rockets as seen trough the masking/edited cover.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Regarding the APS, Would that be that rocket pods we have pointed early? Some pictures suggest a launch tube larger than any usual rockets as seen trough the masking/edited cover.

We don't have any actual representation of this sistem so that Is hard to tell. They could also put miny canisters on the fusulage (like tanks)
Btw, here the official statement from the book:
(For non Italian readers): "Hard Kill anty drones capacity are also under development, thanks to small missiles that will be shot against threats".

 

[yasotay]

It should be possible to put a system such as this in the tailboom, near the center of gravity, if it is not overly heavy.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

- It will have a small navigation radar and a lidar

considering the usual range, I'd guess that the LIDAR would be used for nap-of-the-Earth flighr assistance. Could be very helpful.

- apparently It will be able to land on water thanks to

Probably due to considerations of deploying on the Marina Militare ships.

- a very big news Is that apparently Leonardo Is working on something similar to an APS for the AW249, a sistem that will launch mini missiles against incoming threats such as drones (and the AW249 will be the first heli to mount this sistem)

I'd guess that it's something similar to those 40mm missiles. Just enough to defeat slower anti-air drones, but not for something like MANPADS. That would be DIRCM's job.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Probably due to considerations of deploying on the Marina Militare ships.

In the book they also mentioned that It will have folding rotors like the Mangusta for operate on warships