Avro Pre-1945 Projects

[Schneiderman]

22/28 was for an experimental pusher aircraft.
Most civil aircraft types in the 1920s and 30s were not covered by Air Ministry specs. Its only a few experimental types or those with potential military application that did. These Avro projects were probably either speculative or designed in response to requirements issued by Imperial Airways and other operators.

 

[hesham]

Thank you for explanation Schneiderman,

and I think the Avro-628 was also submitted to Spec. 21/28 as Avro-629,right ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Almost certainly. However neither is likely to have been considered acceptable as one of the key requirements for the mail carrier was high speed.

 

[hesham]

Hi Schneiderman,

can we consider those two Project (Radcliffe) maybe were submitted to this contest or not ?.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4467.msg35416.html#msg35416

 

[Schneiderman]

I don't believe that either was submitted by Gloster as they actually submitted a completely different design.
21/28 was delayed several times and tenders were finally submitted in 1931. It doesn't seem likely that Gloster would have allowed Radcliffe to publish a paper in 1930 if they intended to tender his designs soon after.

 

[hesham]

I don't believe that either was submitted by Gloster as they actually submitted a completely different design.
21/28 was delayed several times and tenders were finally submitted in 1931. It doesn't seem likely that Gloster would have allowed Radcliffe to publish a paper in 1930 if they intended to tender his designs soon after.

Good Analysis.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

was Avro-626 (early design) submitted to Spec. 19/28 or not ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

It doesn't look like a 4 - 5 seater to me, so probably not

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I can't determine for which specification Avro-630 was designed ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

It probably wasn't. There is a long development history for this aircraft/design that goes back to the Type 604 Antelope in 1927.

1927 - Type 604 Antelope high performance day bomber built to spec 12/26
|
1927 - Type 608 Hawk 2-seat fighter
|
1930 - Type 622 Hawk
|
1930 - Type 627 Canadian Mailplane
|
1930 - Type 630 day bomber

It just seems as if they were just developing possible varients, much as Hawker did with the Hart/Demon/Hind etc

 

[Hood]

I don't think its possible to guess specifications and origins simply from the dates given (and we don't know how accurate all these dates are).
A lot of design work in this period wasn't linked directly to official specifications. Most of these must have been serious enough to be assigned type numbers but that doesn't mean they were actually tendered or actively marketed. Many probably are private-ventures.

 

[Schneiderman]

Yes, I agree

 

[hesham]

OK my dears Schneiderman and Hood;

and we can say the same thing about Avro-644,or maybe it was intended for
a specification ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Much the same as with the 630, its the end of a long sequence of proposals derived from one aircraft type.

Tutor-->626 to 32/34-->637-->644

 

[hesham]

Much the same as with the 630, its the end of a long sequence of proposals derived from one aircraft type.

Tutor-->626 to 32/34-->637-->644

Thanks,

also Avro-645,Avro-647,Avro-648,Avro-649 & Avro-650,which specification they were submitted
to it ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

These are civil aircraft so they would have been speculative projects aimed at the smaller UK airlines, such as Hillman, and the growing Australian market etc.

 

[hesham]

These are civil aircraft so they would have been speculative projects aimed at the smaller UK airlines, such as Hillman, and the growing Australian market etc.

Yes,I see,but a big lost if they didn't intended for a specification.

 

[Schneiderman]

That was fairly normal for the smaller British airlines in the 1920s and 30s. Their requirements were generally reasonably well known so formal specifications were not issued very often. Imperial Airways were slightly different at their routes were more complex so they did provide outline specifications.
I doubt that these Avro projects were developed to any great level of detail.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also the same thing for Avro-653,I suspect if it was submitted to Spec. 6/33 ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

I doubt it. 6/33 was to cover a floatplane conversion of two Tiger Moths.
This Avro project is clearly designed for catapult launching from the type fitted on gun turrets. I can't think of a specification from around 1933 that required that.

 

[hesham]

I doubt it. 6/33 was to cover a floatplane conversion of two Tiger Moths.
This Avro project is clearly designed for catapult launching from the type fitted on gun turrets. I can't think of a specification from around 1933 that required that.

OK my dear Schneiderman,

and I forget to display it.

 

[robunos]

I doubt it. 6/33 was to cover a floatplane conversion of two Tiger Moths.
This Avro project is clearly designed for catapult launching from the type fitted on gun turrets. I can't think of a specification from around 1933 that required that.

Specification S.11/32 ? Produced the Fairey Seafox. Size is right, and engine power is in the same ballpark . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[hesham]

Specification S.11/32 ? Produced the Fairey Seafox. Size is right, and engine power is in the same ballpark . . .

cheers,
Robin.

Maybe that's right;

and for Avro-655 & Avro-656,we have two Specifications, B.9/32 & 29/33 ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I think this was a private venture also,the Avro-664.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is early Avro two Projects from 1910.

British Aircraft before The Great War

 

[hesham]

Hi,

was there any chance to assume the Avro-681 and Avro-682 were submitted to
Spec. B.1/39 ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also we can ask if Avro-685B long-range flying boat transport Project was just
a private venture or it was submitted to a specification ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Hi,

also we can ask if Avro-685B long-range flying boat transport Project wa just
a private venture or it was submitted to a specification ?.

This is a York fitted with a flying boat bottom, and therefore very similar to the 1943 Saro S42 project which was had a new Saro hull fitted with Lancaster wing and tail. Both were speculative designs I suspect, perhaps something shown to the Brabazon Committee in the hope that they may be included in their recommendations

 

[hesham]

This is a York fitted with a flying boat bottom, and therefore very similar to the 1943 Saro S42 project which was had a new Saro hull fitted with Lancaster wing and tail. Both were speculative designs I suspect, perhaps something shown to the Brabazon Committee in the hope that they may be included in their recommendations

Or maybe un-interested designs for Brabazon Committee,also we cana sk about Avro-686,and
if it was submitted to a specification or not ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Or maybe un-interested designs for Brabazon Committee,

No, the Committee did not specify any new flying boats, only interim machines from converted Sunderlands

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I can't imagine what the shape of Avro-687 ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Really? It says it was based on the Type 694 (Lincoln) which will give a clue. What other transport projects were based on Lincoln flying surfaces? Ah, the Tudor Type 688.
I think I posted a 3-view of the XX here somewhere. I'll check

edit. Here it is

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Schneiderman.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Avro also submitted a proposal for Spec. B.20/40,but no more Info is available ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Avro also submitted a proposal for Spec. B.20/40,but no more Info is available ?.

Perhaps an updated version of the Type 676/Type 677?

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/xfr3q6

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/xfr3q6/avro_lancaster_b_mkii_with_bristol_hercules/

 

[hesham]

From, Shackleton at War and Peace.

 

[TsrJoe]

Saunders Roe S.42 Lancaster flying boat, 1943

 

[Foo Fighter]

Curious, apart from the general shape of the main wings, I cannot see a Lancaster there.

 

[robunos]

From Putnam's 'Saunders and Saro', page 306 -7 :-

"Saro S.42 and S.42A
Submitted to Air Ministry July 1942. Employed wing and engines of the Avro Lancaster bomber married to a hull similar to that of project S.40.
S.42
Overload weight 70,000 lb, maximum speed 250 mph at 9,000 ft, range at overload weight 3,750 miles.
Armament: one cannon in nose, two machine-guns in dorsal turret, four machine-guns in tail turret.
S.42A
A freight versIon. Armament deleted. 35,800 lb cargo at overload weight.
Maximum speed 240 mph at 12,000ft with Rolls-Royce Merlin XX; 260 mph at 16,000ft with Bristol Hercules VI.

Not ordered because of the increasing use of landplanes in the transport role."

There's also a mention in Tagg & Wheeler's 'From Sea to Air', but i don't have that to hand atm . . .

From the illustrations it would appear that the S.42 uses the wings, engines and tail surfaces of the Lancaster, along with a modified Lancaster canopy. I wouldn't be surprised if various Lancaster system were employed as well.

cheers,
Robin.