Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

[bob225]

Some little bits of info about the choppers on the raid: (updated with quotes)

LEON PANETTA: They decided to make use of these newer helicopters that had been developed because they were better able to avoid radar detection.

JEREMY BASH: We all went out to the observation post—we were given night vision goggles and parkas to stay warm—and looked out over the ridge and waited for the helicopters to emerge. To the surprise of everybody, the helicopters emerged not at the ridge we were looking at, but actually right behind us, right over our backs. It reinforced how these aircraft could come with a pretty good degree of surprise.

LEON PANETTA: They had to put the body on the helicopter, get whatever intelligence they could that was in the compound, destroy the helicopter that was down because it was classified and they did not want it falling into the hands of the Pakistanis or, more importantly, the Chinese.

MIKE LEITER: The president at the moment quipped to Bill McRaven, “You just blew up a $65 million helicopter and you don’t have enough money to buy a tape measure?”

EON PANETTA: Then it was really a question of McRaven working with the SEAL team to practice that operation. A model of the compound was built at one of our classified facilities.

‘I’d Never Been Involved in Anything as Secret as This’

The plan to kill Osama bin Laden—from the spycraft to the assault to its bizarre political backdrop—as told by the people in the room.

www.politico.com

 

[fightingirish]

The newest render is still fiction, but I hope one day to see the second helicopter in real in a museum.

The Day We Learned About The Stealth Black Hawk Used In OBL Raid.

Since 2011 we have collected the description of someone who was in Afghanistan and saw the secret MH-X Stealth Black Hawk helicopter recover after the

theaviationist.com

 

[yasotay]

Seems a little more practical than other ideas, but the "salad" on the nose doesn't help.

 

[RavenOne]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

 

[Q-nimbus]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

It’s not that hard to evade the F16’s radar in a helo when flying in low, mountainous terrain. Not only can you use the terrain to shield yourself from view, but the helicopter blades shield the helicopter from (Doppler) radar because they act as a phase locked loop; the signal/frequency that goes in goes out (very simply speaking).

So it seems the story is spiced up a bit, but the timeline doesn’t add up either; the first Pakistani planes weren’t in the air until well after the raid, by then the helicopters participating in the raid were already over the border, or at least very close.

 

[Q-nimbus]

About the SHHHHHH-60’s: I think a lot of people focus on it’s radar evading/stealth capabilities. I believe it’s true stealthiness is that it’s very, very quiet. I still wonder if the helicopter that was heard when the raid was tweeted about by a local was the Chinook that came in later, or one of the SHHHHH-60’s.

 

[RavenOne]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

It’s not that hard to evade the F16’s radar in a helo when flying in low, mountainous terrain. Not only can you use the terrain to shield yourself from view, but the helicopter blades shield the helicopter from (Doppler) radar because they act as a phase locked loop; the signal/frequency that goes in goes out (very simply speaking).

So it seems the story is spiced up a bit, but the timeline doesn’t add up either; the first Pakistani planes weren’t in the air until well after the raid, by then the helicopters participating in the raid were already over the border, or at least very close.

The Chinook was removing the target‘s remains after the raid

cheers

 

[yasotay]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

 

[quellish]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

 

[yasotay]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

 

[quellish]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

Was posted previously in the thread:

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

Doug Englen talked about the bin Laden raid, and his life, for the first time in an exclusive interview with Military Times.

www.militarytimes.com

 

[rooster]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

Was posted previously in the thread:

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

Doug Englen talked about the bin Laden raid, and his life, for the first time in an exclusive interview with Military Times.

www.militarytimes.com

Great story but I would suspect there was more than flying on that mission than 4 helicopters, i.e. something else was protecting the choppers from the pak's f16s radar.

 

[TomS]

The April/May CTC Sentinel has an interview with RADM McRaven. He mentions the helicopters in passing. Nothing earth shattering, but he notes that the "modified" aircraft had limited troop capacity compared to normal helicopters and that they were especially limited due to the altitude at Abottabad. If they had not flown the op in May, the forecast temperatures were too high to do it for several months. That feeds into the reports that the crash might be in part due to hotter than expected air temps robbing the aircraft of lift at the critical moment.

https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CTC-SENTINEL-042021.pdf

 

[yasotay]

High - Hot has always been the bane of VTOL aircraft. The Hindu-Kush define that.

 

[youROKer]

It seems to be a fresh photo from Afghanistan. The source is unknown to me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/p51xw3

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/p51xw3/what_helicopter_is_this_stealth_uh60_black_hawk/

 

[Grey Havoc]

Hmmmm.

 

[Silencer1]

It seems to be a fresh photo from Afghanistan. The source is unknown to me.

It's first Taliban-designed and produced helicopter, made according to Sharia's laws of aerodynamic.

 

[Manuducati]

More pictures...
Low resolution, distortion and sun reflection on a standard Blackhawk or... ?

 

[yasotay]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Same angle - Yastotay nailed it...

BLACK HAWK® Helicopter

Discover the Sikorsky BLACK HAWK®, a versatile combat helicopter for military missions and civilian use. Explore more at Lockheed Martin.

www.lockheedmartin.com

 

[Jeb]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

 

[yasotay]

Maybe they got them second hand from "another" agency.

 

[TomS]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models. The pointy nose is what they hang the FLIR from.

State Department's New Black Hawks In Afghanistan Could Prove Especially Important After Withdrawal

The State Department's Air Wing could be critical to keeping Americans safe if the security situation in the country continues to deteriorate.

www.thedrive.com

 

[isayyo2]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models. The pointy nose is what they hang the FLIR from.

State Department's New Black Hawks In Afghanistan Could Prove Especially Important After Withdrawal

The State Department's Air Wing could be critical to keeping Americans safe if the security situation in the country continues to deteriorate.

www.thedrive.com

Beat me to it

 

[Grey Havoc]

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models.

Bureaucratic maneuver to avoid possible certification issues?

 

[Silencer1]

Looks, like there were a lot of Black Hawk' versions currently in service by various customers and services. But, with all due respect, why they are discussed in this thread? Perhaps, they deserve their own place in SPF?

P.S. Off-topic: mysterious "stealth" helicopte, used in Bin Laden' raid, looks slightly odd, when today I see "controversial" images from Afganistan. Those special operations could be so far from the victory in whole conflict...

 

[TomS]

Looks, like there were a lot of Black Hawk' versions currently in service by various customers and services. But, with all due respect, why they are discussed in this thread? Perhaps, they deserve their own place in SPF?

Mostly the other Black Hawk variants are discussed here to explain why the pictures people saw are probably not Stealth Hawks.

 

[Silencer1]

Mostly the other Black Hawk variants are discussed here to explain why the pictures people saw are probably not Stealth Hawks.

I understand you point.
Curiously, the thread is started 10 years ago
Still no new/reliable images or sources of "downed chopper" and some helicopters, equipped with more or less features to provide sthealth.

 

[Fluff]

Looks, like there were a lot of Black Hawk' versions currently in service by various customers and services. But, with all due respect, why they are discussed in this thread? Perhaps, they deserve their own place in SPF?

Mostly the other Black Hawk variants are discussed here to explain why the pictures people saw are probably not Stealth Hawks.

And given the speed of change in Afghanistan, there’s a slim chance of the stealth hawks being flushed out or actually used.

and posible sightings will need to be posted and discussed, if we must wait for official pics, this site would be very quiet….

 

[Dragon029]

To further debunk the 'stealth hawk' sighting, you can get a better look at it in the video footage the screenshots are taken of:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EVvvwlYho4&t=171s

 

[Silencer1]

To further debunk the 'stealth hawk' sighting, you can get a better look at it in the video footage the screenshots are taken of:

What's a starnge white "blimp" in the center of the screen?

View: https://youtu.be/8EVvvwlYho4?t=179

 

[Dynoman]

Surveillance blimp tethered to the NATO HQ in Kabul. Its equipped with cameras and other surveillance equipment that has helped prevent at least one attack in the past. I've read that every time they recover the blimp its filled with bullet holes. The local residents see the blimp as an intrusive prying overseer and not a friendly 'neighborhood watch.'

 

[RavenOne]

Worth watching this documentary...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14574560/

Revealed: The Hunt for Bin Laden

Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"As the briefs went through the chain of command there was a sensitivity expressed on exposure to radars and discovery of the helicopters as the force was infiltrating. That shifted the conversation to using the Black Hawks that had some of the capabilities to defeat radar."


Command Master Chief, US Navy SEAL Team Six

"Very early on when we got out and saw them fly they were unstable, particularly when they came into hover and I said with all due respect I don't think that we should use these helicopters. The time to try something new is not on the most important raid arguably since WW2."


Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"Another one of the factors that we had to take into account was that the aircrews flying the Black Hawks had been separate programme and didn't have a lot of time flying overseas."


Admiral McCraven, Commander Joint Special Operations Command

"..... those particular crews had been taken out of the fight for quite a while and really had just been part of research."

 

[rooster]

Worth watching this documentary...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14574560/

Revealed: The Hunt for Bin Laden

Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"As the briefs went through the chain of command there was a sensitivity expressed on exposure to radars and discovery of the helicopters as the force was infiltrating. That shifted the conversation to using the Black Hawks that had some of the capabilities to defeat radar."


Command Master Chief, US Navy SEAL Team Six

"Very early on when we got out and saw them fly they were unstable, particularly when they came into hover and I said with all due respect I don't think that we should use these helicopters. The time to try something new is not on the most important raid arguably since WW2."


Lead Planner and Captain, US Navy SEAL.

"Another one of the factors that we had to take into account was that the aircrews flying the Black Hawks had been separate programme and didn't have a lot of time flying overseas."


Admiral McCraven, Commander Joint Special Operations Command

"..... those particular crews had been taken out of the fight for quite a while and really had just been part of research."

Respectfully, I believe very little that I read in a book. I have been fooled before when decades after the fact, oh hey we actually built and flew the a12 years before the SR-71. That sort of changes the story a wee little bit.

 

[publiusr]

Could they not have had a stealth Huey that didn’t have a mile long tail? Kamovs would be my choice for a confined area…no way to quiet contra rotating props for a smaller landing footprint?

 

[yasotay]

I think the comments are very telling, and believable. It may be that the aircraft used were in fact little more than test articles for researching means to reduce helicopter radar signatures. No real intent to use them operationally, but some smart wag thought otherwise and foisted them on the operational community.

 

[Hood]

Well even if they were testbeds, the research programme must have been launched with this sort of mission scenario in mind. It would seem silly not to test them in an operational environment if it was feasible to do so if that is what they were designed for.

 

[yasotay]

Operational testing of unproven technology in a mission of national/international level focus, were failure becomes a national embarrassment, is never looked on well by "special" communities who prefer that very few know what has occurred with their actions.

 

[quellish]

If you are familiar with the cartoon "Scooby Doo", imagine UBL's last words being:
"I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you kids and that dog Cairo!"

Thus, within the special operations community the nickname for the helicopter is "The Mystery Machine"

 

[publiusr]

This might be bonkers...suppose you rotate the blades faster than normal...but with little bite if there is a thermal over a target. Glide in and auto-rotate down with a somewhat longer fast rope cable winched up at almost the rate of descent...so as to deposit a squad of men at nearly zero speed and little prop wash...as if the squad were a zeps cloud car of old. The chopper cranks back up but still loses its tail..the second chopper in under power. Doors open and the squad slips by...makes the sanction and kills the guards going out...not coming in. They hop on the second chopper and are out. I would like to think that if I were a nearby Al Queda...I could get an RPG or two out pretty fast. But in the scenario here...I don't have the chance. Thoughts?