Army Indirect Fire Protection System and New Guided Missile Program

[sferrin]

You will never get into a favorable cost per kill ratio with a sub $5000 drone unless you go directed energy or employ jamming. Even Semi Active seekers will run you a good chunk of change.

Yep. TOR tried to keep costs down by keeping most of the brains on the launch vehicle but even that would get expensive with the really cheap drones.

 

[marauder2048]

Some of the JLTVs will have LW30 RWS.

It should be possible to equip them with the proximity fuzed version of the
LW30 round being developed for Apache.

That proximity fuze might have enough margin to be used in the 30x173 round as well.

Linking all of the above into IFCN is non-trivial but they have to do it for
IFPC and Avenger anyway.

 

[bring_it_on]

deleted

 

[bobbymike]

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/raytheon-flight-test-deepstrike-missile-2019

Ryan Braden of Raytheon’s advanced land warfare systems group said during an Oct. 9 interview that DeepStrike has passed through an initial design review and the prototype is now being developed for first flight in 2019.

“The objective is to get this to the Army as quickly as possible,” Braden says. “The whole purpose of the TMRR phase is to have an engineering and manufacturing development-ready missile at the end, so we can roll into development and start low-rate production.”

Up the thread there were stories saying 2027 deployment this pace seems quicker than that?

 

[bobbymike]

http://spacenews.com/orbital-atk-eyes-investments-in-advanced-rocket-motors/

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2017/10/11/army-to-demonstrate-new-extended-range-artillery-by-2018

The new system is “not just a gun; it’s projectile, it’s cannon, it’s fire control,” he said at the Association for the United States Army’s annual conference in Washington, D.C. It can be fired from a mobile platform as well as a towed platform, he added.

 

[marauder2048]

Orbital ATK is developing a range of new advanced medium-calibre ammunition
variants for use with its 30/40 mm calibre MK44 XM813 and 30 mm calibre lightweight
XM914 Bushmaster Chain Guns. The new ammunition types – command-guided,
proximity fuze, and air burst – are intended to deliver enhanced capabilities for a wide
range of land and air combat platforms.

Development of the 30×173 mm command-guided round leverages technologies
evolved by Orbital ATK for the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
(DARPA) Extreme Accuracy Tasked Ordnance (EXACTO) programme.

The EXACTO effort has resulted in a guided .50 calibre round – equipped with real-time
optical sensors and aero-actuation controls – that improves sniping performance in
long-range, day/night engagements. The EXACTO system combines a manoeuvrable
bullet with a complementary laser designator-equipped fire-control system (FCS) to
compensate for weather, wind, target movement, and other factors that can reduce
accuracy.

The sniper uses the laser designator to determine and track the target. Once fired,
actuators inside the bullet – which can correct its movement up to 30 times per second
in flight – receive data from the optical sensor to guide it to the target. For the new
30×173 mm guided round, the target is locked with a radar sensor, while a networked
FCS delivers updated course correction and target information via a datalink to an
unspecified command guidance sensor located in the back of the munition.

“It’s a one shot, one kill capability in one round,” Tim Strusz, Director Business
Development, Precision Weapons at Orbital ATK told Jane’s .

“In terms of operational cost effectiveness, the round pays for itself with a single shot,” he added.

http://www.janes.com/article/75087/orbital-atk-progresses-new-medium-calibre-munition-development

 

[sferrin]

Orbital ATK is developing a range of new advanced medium-calibre ammunition
variants for use with its 30/40 mm calibre MK44 XM813 and 30 mm calibre lightweight
XM914 Bushmaster Chain Guns. The new ammunition types – command-guided,
proximity fuze, and air burst – are intended to deliver enhanced capabilities for a wide
range of land and air combat platforms.

Development of the 30×173 mm command-guided round leverages technologies
evolved by Orbital ATK for the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
(DARPA) Extreme Accuracy Tasked Ordnance (EXACTO) programme.

The EXACTO effort has resulted in a guided .50 calibre round – equipped with real-time
optical sensors and aero-actuation controls – that improves sniping performance in
long-range, day/night engagements. The EXACTO system combines a manoeuvrable
bullet with a complementary laser designator-equipped fire-control system (FCS) to
compensate for weather, wind, target movement, and other factors that can reduce
accuracy.

The sniper uses the laser designator to determine and track the target. Once fired,
actuators inside the bullet – which can correct its movement up to 30 times per second
in flight – receive data from the optical sensor to guide it to the target. For the new
30×173 mm guided round, the target is locked with a radar sensor, while a networked
FCS delivers updated course correction and target information via a datalink to an
unspecified command guidance sensor located in the back of the munition.

“It’s a one shot, one kill capability in one round,” Tim Strusz, Director Business
Development, Precision Weapons at Orbital ATK told Jane’s .

“In terms of operational cost effectiveness, the round pays for itself with a single shot,” he added.

http://www.janes.com/article/75087/orbital-atk-progresses-new-medium-calibre-munition-development

Uhm. . .yeah. Let's see a human keep a laser designator on this long enough for a bullet to hit it. Hell, even a machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9RUKcMoBRQ

And you can be CERTAIN they'll have AI capable of doing this (likely more as human reflexes will cease to be the limiter) in a few short years. Imagine 100 of them heading toward your position, each with the equivalent of a 30mm round onboard, and all they're trained to do is blow up near a human, optical sight, radar array, etc. Each individual member of the swarm communicating with the "cloud" it carries along with it, to make sure there isn't double-coverage on any one target unless needed. Imagine that "30 mm round" has a small shaped charge, large enough to punch a hole in the wall of an artillery barrel if so desired. Churn these things out in big factories like iphones. The mind boggles at the implications. Instead of ATACMs dropping a unitary warhead on the target, or a bunch of dumb submunitions, it comes in low and deploys a few hundred of these things. Maybe a version of a USMC LVTP-7 ditches the meat compartment in the back and has a thousand or so of these at the ready to help clean the beach landing site. Maybe the next time a "boat swarm" shows up to harass USN ships a thousand of these suckers go meet it. The possibilities are endless.

 

[TomS]

The article says the 30mm version uses radar to track the target. Presumably pretty high frequency to provide good resolution on small targets like drones.

 

[sferrin]

The article says the 30mm version uses radar to track the target. Presumably pretty high frequency to provide good resolution on small targets like drones.

I'm skeptical that it would be effective against the type I showed in the video. A DJI type (like in the photo in the article) isn't remotely as difficult of a target.

 

[bring_it_on]

The first line of defense would likely be to take the drone down via Electronic Attack. If it can survive Electronic disruption, only then will kinetic options be utilized imho. Now how much of EW/EA can cheap, really small drones survive before they become practically useless to their operators?

 

[sferrin]

The first line of defense would likely be to take the drone down via Electronic Attack. If it can survive Electronic disruption, only then will kinetic options be utilized imho. Now how much of EW/EA can cheap, really small drones survive before they become practically useless to their operators?

A multi-Kw laser (30 - 100k) would be a better option for these things IMO. Even a radar directed gun is going to struggle to keep up with this kind of drone.

 

[Rickshaw]

The first line of defense would likely be to take the drone down via Electronic Attack. If it can survive Electronic disruption, only then will kinetic options be utilized imho. Now how much of EW/EA can cheap, really small drones survive before they become practically useless to their operators?

A multi-Kw laser (30 - 100k) would be a better option for these things IMO. Even a radar directed gun is going to struggle to keep up with this kind of drone.

"That kind of drone" is simply too small, too light and too short-ranged to carry sufficient payload fast enough and far enough to emulate that sort of manoeuvrability. The reason why it is so fast and manoeuvrable is because it is light weight and it doesn't have to demonstrate it for very long. A 30mm round - which is BTW, far too small a calibre to penetrate most MBT roofs, weighs about 1.5 kg (with case, obviously not needed in this situation. Lets say about .5 kg). It will only ever have a MV of the drone, say a few tens of metres a second. A hollow charge round would only penetrate about 30-40 mm. The drone would not be able to manoeuvre as quickly carrying that sort of weight.

 

[sferrin]

"That kind of drone" is simply too small, too light and too short-ranged to carry sufficient payload fast enough and far enough to emulate that sort of manoeuvrability.

That SPECIFIC quad is. It's an example of what's possible though. I thought that was obvious.

The reason why it is so fast and manoeuvrable is because it is light weight and it doesn't have to demonstrate it for very long.

It's not the weight but the power to weight. And there's no reason why short range drones would need to fly for hours.

A 30mm round - which is BTW, far too small a calibre to penetrate most MBT roofs,

Who said anything about penetrating MBT roofs?

weighs about 1.5 kg (with case, obviously not needed in this situation. Lets say about .5 kg).

This 0.5 kg rifle grenade (with a lot of unnecessary structure for this application) can penetrate 350mm of armor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC58

It will only ever have a MV of the drone, say a few tens of metres a second.

Shaped charges don't care. These aren't KE rounds. Also, these are going MUCH faster than that. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtmatZ5o7s

A hollow charge round would only penetrate about 30-40 mm.

"The M789 is typically used in the M230. Each round contains 21.5 g (0.76 oz) of explosive charge sealed in a shaped-charge liner. The liner collapses into an armor-piercing jet of metal that is capable of penetrating more than 2 inches of RHA. Additionally, the shell is also designed to fragment upon impact. The lethal radius against unprotected, standing targets is about 10 ft (3.0 m) under optimum conditions."

The M789 projectile weighs 236g

https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/armament-systems/30mm/docs/LW30mm_Fact_Sheet.pdf

2 inches of RHA is plenty to punch a hole in a tank or howitzer gun barrel for a mission kill. Hell, if all you're interested in is antipersonnel or busting an optical turret or radar array you could go smaller.

The drone would not be able to manoeuvre as quickly carrying that sort of weight.

Make it a bit bigger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gnc7yDId0s

(Obviously you wouldn't dangle the payload on a string.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-46h7Hshl2c

 

[bring_it_on]

...

 

[Rickshaw]

"That kind of drone" is simply too small, too light and too short-ranged to carry sufficient payload fast enough and far enough to emulate that sort of manoeuvrability.

That SPECIFIC quad is. It's an example of what's possible though. I thought that was obvious.

No, it is not.

The reason why it is so fast and manoeuvrable is because it is light weight and it doesn't have to demonstrate it for very long.

It's not the weight but the power to weight. And there's no reason why short range drones would need to fly for hours.

They would need to cover several thousands of metres before coming into contact with enemy forces. You simply could not assemble and launch large numbers of drones closer without some form of rapid response occurring. You appear to forget, just as far as drones proliferate, so do counter-drone weapons. The range of the drone will determine survivability of the launching soldiers and of course, their ability to search for their targets.

A 30mm round - which is BTW, far too small a calibre to penetrate most MBT roofs,

Who said anything about penetrating MBT roofs?

Tank gun/Howitzer barrels are as tough, if not more so. Wasn't the use of an MBT as example, obvious?

weighs about 1.5 kg (with case, obviously not needed in this situation. Lets say about .5 kg).

This 0.5 kg rifle grenade (with a lot of unnecessary structure for this application) can penetrate 350mm of armor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC58

Penetration is not stated in that Wiki article. I find it remarkable that a .5kg rifle grenade could exhibit performance like that whereas your US Army example doesn't...

It will only ever have a MV of the drone, say a few tens of metres a second.

Shaped charges don't care. These aren't KE rounds. Also, these are going MUCH faster than that. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtmatZ5o7s

MV determines accuracy, not penetration with HEAT rounds. Low MV means short range and rather inaccurate weapons.

A hollow charge round would only penetrate about 30-40 mm.

"The M789 is typically used in the M230. Each round contains 21.5 g (0.76 oz) of explosive charge sealed in a shaped-charge liner. The liner collapses into an armor-piercing jet of metal that is capable of penetrating more than 2 inches of RHA. Additionally, the shell is also designed to fragment upon impact. The lethal radius against unprotected, standing targets is about 10 ft (3.0 m) under optimum conditions."

The M789 projectile weighs 236g

https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/armament-systems/30mm/docs/LW30mm_Fact_Sheet.pdf

2 inches of RHA is plenty to punch a hole in a tank or howitzer gun barrel for a mission kill. Hell, if all you're interested in is antipersonnel or busting an optical turret or radar array you could go smaller.

If it hits it, yes. However, you're aiming at a long, thin, often mobile target. The drone would have to have phenomenal accuracy to hit a tank/gun barrel. Optical turrets or radar arrays tend tobe even smaller targets to find and destroy.

The drone would not be able to manoeuvre as quickly carrying that sort of weight.

Make it a bit bigger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gnc7yDId0s

(Obviously you wouldn't dangle the payload on a string.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-46h7Hshl2c

Make it bigger? Makes it a bigger target, more easily detected, more easily counteed and of course, it's increased weight and size makes it less manoeuvrable...

 

[DrRansom]

Doesn't the average racing UAV have a battery life < 10 minutes?

Sure the UAV can pull off sick tricks, but if you need to be suicidally close to deploy them, what's the purpose?

I am very intrigued that the Army is planning to get a new howitzer ready by next year(!). That is uncharacteristically very fast.

 

[sferrin]

Doesn't the average racing UAV have a battery life < 10 minutes?

Sure the UAV can pull off sick tricks, but if you need to be suicidally close to deploy them, what's the purpose?

Go read what I wrote.

 

[sferrin]

...

I'm curious what the one with the wings is. (Obviously it's related to LRPFs but it's size/configuration suggests there's more to it than that.)

 

[marauder2048]

LowerAD: Low-Cost Extended Range Air Defense.

 

[marauder2048]

Tail Controlled GMLRS fact sheet

 

[marauder2048]

Lockheed 2017 supplier conference GMLRS status (extended range, IM)

 

[marauder2048]

Regarding Orbital ATK's command guided 30x173, I knew I had seen something similar before.

From Col. Gutierrez' Munitions 2017 presentation.

 

[sferrin]

Any talk at all about the Boeing / SAAB MLRS/SDB tests? Seems like it would be a no-brainer, an idea so awesome it'd get jumped on with both feet. ???

 

[bobbymike]

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

 

[TomS]

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

Hmm. I know they fired ATACMS from a launcher on a ship's deck as far back as 1995. I'm surprised that it's taken this long to do the same with MLRS rounds.

 

[Moose]

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

Hmm. I know they fired ATACMS from a launcher on a ship's deck as far back as 1995. I'm surprised that it's taken this long to do the same with MLRS rounds.

Guidance, GMLRS wasn't around in 95.

 

[sferrin]

Guidance, GMLRS wasn't around in 95.

Why would a guidance system be a limitation?

 

[TomS]

Guidance, GMLRS wasn't around in 95.

Why would a guidance system be a limitation?

Because you need guidance to correct in flight the errors in launch trajectory caused by a moving platform.

GMLRS came about in 2005/6; I would have expected an at-sea test within a year or two of that, but possibly the demands for ready-use rounds in Afghanistan made that impossible.

 

[sferrin]

Guidance, GMLRS wasn't around in 95.

Why would a guidance system be a limitation?

Because you need guidance to correct in flight the errors in launch trajectory caused by a moving platform.

GMLRS came about in 2005/6; I would have expected an at-sea test within a year or two of that, but possibly the demands for ready-use rounds in Afghanistan made that impossible.

LM did promote guided MLRS from their VLS back then. Don't recall what they called it but I remember seeing it on their site. Also, unguided rockets have been used many times over the years from ships (granted, not at long range against land targets).

 

[TomS]

Guidance, GMLRS wasn't around in 95.

Why would a guidance system be a limitation?

Because you need guidance to correct in flight the errors in launch trajectory caused by a moving platform.

GMLRS came about in 2005/6; I would have expected an at-sea test within a year or two of that, but possibly the demands for ready-use rounds in Afghanistan made that impossible.

LM did promote guided MLRS from their VLS back then. Don't recall what they called it but I remember seeing it on their site. Also, unguided rockets have been used many times over the years from ships (granted, not at long range against land targets).

That was POLAR. which was discussed c.1999, in parallel with initial GMLRS development.

Unguided rockets over the range of MLRS would probably not have been accurate enough from a moving ship. Add the increased pressure not to just blanket a whole grid square with submunitions and guidance was clearly required.

 

[bobbymike]

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/ausa/peo-missiles/

 

[bring_it_on]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnmOXMDKg2g

 

[bring_it_on]

Aviation and Missile
Technology
Other Transaction Agreement
Requirements and
Technology Exchange Day

https://www.scribd.com/document/363399780/11032017-OTA-PPT-26

 

[fredymac]

Counter UAS gun/RF combo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_wvP59mKTQ

 

[jsport]

Counter UAS gun/RF combo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_wvP59mKTQ

Pretty sexy
thanks for posting fredymac.

 

[marauder2048]

Great find! Hopefully, we'll get to see footage of the command guided 30mm.

 

[fredymac]

Great find! Hopefully, we'll get to see footage of the command guided 30mm.

They've already tested it at 50mm so it's mainly a packaging exercise.

Go to 40 second mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpNtV_309Ns

 

[marauder2048]

Janes' article and the Army briefing seem to describe something a bit different than EAPS which
was command divert (via thruster) + command detonate.

 

[fredymac]

That would make it more like the DARPA Exacto 50cal bullet but with a proximity fuse included. I would think an RF ground linked guidance would be cheaper than semi-active seeker.