Army Indirect Fire Protection System and New Guided Missile Program

Some additional info regarding the lack of Hellfire seen on the Sgt. Stout.

Prohibition on Hellfire Missile Use on M-SHORAD Increment 1

Reportedly, the Army is planning to replace the Longbow Hellfire missile launcher on M-SHORAD Increment 1 vehicles because the Hellfire mounted on the side of the vehicle “created wear and tear on the missile, leading to potential safety concerns.” The Army reportedly plans to retrofit M-SHORAD vehicles “by swapping out the Hellfire launcher and for a second Stinger pod,” which would give the modified vehicles eight total FIM-92 Stinger rounds.

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Forest Green said:
Might get AGM-179 instead.
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It's entirely possible, but as Scott said, it assumes JAGM doesn't have the same inherent issues as Hellfire, which it very well could.
I think the real big question that needs to be asked is how important is it for the Stout to be able to engage ground targets, and does it need more than a 30mm to do so.

The Moog turret is about as modular as it gets, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue to integrate JAGM if that is the root they go. It's mentioned by name in the turret's brochure after all.
 
The pic appears to be a Technovative Applications radar with its different/unusual type CW interferometer radar which can locate airborne, ground based and naval moving targets rapidly and accurately, are multi-mission, multi-function which are compact and highly mobile and precise enough to monitor the flight patterns of birds and even track individual .30 caliber bullets within a continuous fire stream.
TA seem to often receive R&D contracts but not production contracts e.g. dropped from the Patriot competition along with NG for the LTAMDS radar at first round.
 
www.defensenews.com

Guam missile defense office awaits funds to build layered architecture

The joint program office for the missile defense of Guam is creating a layered air and missile defense architecture on the Pacific island.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818794171890626870
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1818794171890626870

www.twz.com

Army Seeking AIM-9X-Sized Surface-To-Air Missile With AIM-120-Like Range

The Army's Enduring Shield SAM system is set to use AIM-9X first, but the service wants a new missile to drastically expand its capabilities.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
 
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Scott Kenny said:
So, Cudas and Peregrines? Or whatever the names of the HalfRAAMs were?
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A fighter IWB allows you to carry two in place of one by cutting down the length by approximately half. Army has no such restrictions on length so a "HalfRAAM" does not make sense. Designers designing for IFPC will most definitely utilize the full cannister volume available to them.
 
Forest Green said:
www.defensenews.com

Guam missile defense office awaits funds to build layered architecture

The joint program office for the missile defense of Guam is creating a layered air and missile defense architecture on the Pacific island.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818794171890626870
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1818794171890626870
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Solid rocket have been stuck around 265 - 280 for half a century. The fact that ramjets have made a come back suggests there isn't a whole lot more to be gained there. Not for lack of trying but AP, HTPB & seasoning is still by far the most common. If you need insensitive munitions it only goes down.
 
sferrin said:
Solid rocket have been stuck around 265 - 280 for half a century. The fact that ramjets have made a come back suggests there isn't a whole lot more to be gained there. Not for lack of trying but AP, HTPB & seasoning is still by far the most common. If you need insensitive munitions it only goes down.
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They have a lot of option for it. Also given that this is a ground based interceptor one can ask if Amraams ground launched performance is asked for. That is not really Impossible to do.
 
bring_it_on said:
A fighter IWB allows you to carry two in place of one by cutting down the length by approximately half. Army has no such restrictions on length so a "HalfRAAM" does not make sense. Designers designing for IFPC will most definitely utilize the full cannister volume available to them.
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It sounds like the IFPC box is length limited, and isn't AMRAAM length. So they need a ~10ft or less missile with AMRAAM performance. Assuming that HalfRAAMs still have AMRAAM performance when surface launched, they'd fit the bill.
 
10 ft length and 5-6 inch diameter missile. Basically full canister that can fit the AIM-9X and the Tamir. That's way more missile with loads more propellant than CUDA or Peregrine which were limited due to fighter carriage requirements.
 
bring_it_on said:
10 ft length and 5-6 inch diameter missile. Basically full canister that can fit the AIM-9X and the Tamir. That's way more missile with loads more propellant than CUDA or Peregrine which were limited due to fighter carriage requirements.
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Does it have to be 5-6 in diameter or does the wingspan of the missile just have to be the same as Aim-9X. Afterall this and length is wat brings the size of the canister. Then maybe its larger as the wingspan should be some 0.64m large.
 
kqcke for you said:
Does it have to be 5-6 in diameter or does the wingspan of the missile just have to be the same as Aim-9X. Afterall this and length is wat brings the size of the canister. Then maybe its larger as the wingspan should be some 0.64m large.
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It needs to fit and egress from the canister. A different design could probably squeeze out a little bit more motor size while still fitting in the cannister. I assumed six inch dia of Tamir.
 
bring_it_on said:
It needs to fit and egress from the canister. A different design could probably squeeze out a little bit more motor size while still fitting in the cannister. I assumed six inch dia of Tamir.
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Ok so my guess is right. Something akin toc6 in or a little more would Work. But in the end we have to weight and see.
 
Forest Green said:
www.defensenews.com

Guam missile defense office awaits funds to build layered architecture

The joint program office for the missile defense of Guam is creating a layered air and missile defense architecture on the Pacific island.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818794171890626870
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1818794171890626870

www.twz.com

Army Seeking AIM-9X-Sized Surface-To-Air Missile With AIM-120-Like Range

The Army's Enduring Shield SAM system is set to use AIM-9X first, but the service wants a new missile to drastically expand its capabilities.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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I don't like the new tendency of the US Military to "signal to industry" come up with something to fix some very difficult niche capability.

If the US Army wants improved propellent recipes, then they have to fund the basic research to find them. If propellent ISP can't be improved, research and develop alternate missile designs (no fins, lifting body, etc.), that achieve the mission. Or, if you don't have the money, say you'll issue a contract to anyone who shows up with a set of capabilities so private R&D has a guaranteed payoff.

But making speeches about how somebody should do something seems the effective route of all.
 
DrRansom said:
I don't like the new tendency of the US Military to "signal to industry" come up with something to fix some very difficult niche capability.

If the US Army wants improved propellent recipes, then they have to fund the basic research to find them. If propellent ISP can't be improved, research and develop alternate missile designs (no fins, lifting body, etc.), that achieve the mission. Or, if you don't have the money, say you'll issue a contract to anyone who shows up with a set of capabilities so private R&D has a guaranteed payoff.

But making speeches about how somebody should do something seems the effective route of all.
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It comes from how people talk about "something needs to be done" referring to the government as that someone.

But the military knows that DARPA stops at "can we build something that does X" without making it an operational weapons system. It basically comes from how Flag Officers get rotated around to different commands before the project that they asked DARPA to build gets done, so the idea has lost its cheerleader unless the Flag Lieutenant shared that vision with his boss and has made enough rank to be pushing for it.
 
sferrin said:
Such as?
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CL20 or similiar more powerful stuff, new Metal Additives, HGL, more smaller additives (whole nano stuff) which alles for more optemised reactions, additive production for a more tailored design, new engine materials (for structure as example) and we also have to remember that electronic get smaller, warheads more powerful just as we get more more accurate missiles for HTK.
 
kqcke for you said:
CL20 or similiar more powerful stuff, new Metal Additives, HGL, more smaller additives (whole nano stuff) which alles for more optemised reactions, additive production for a more tailored design, new engine materials (for structure as example) a.
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Heard about them. Has anybody actually used them? Sounds like a lot like gel fuel. Lots of hype no beef.
 
sferrin said:
Heard about them. Has anybody actually used them? Sounds like a lot like gel fuel. Lots of hype no beef.
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There was something about the SM-3 rocket motors producers believing that they could squeeze more actual propellant inside somehow.
 
sferrin said:
Heard about them. Has anybody actually used them?
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Some stuff like CL20 is said to be used, some are offered (for example andruils aluminum-lithium Alitec stuff) and some are more or less just being developt or there development Just finnished. Some stuff are still being developt.
 
going back to ramjets real fast.

The Army is fucking around 155mm ramjet shells. With a test last year getting over 50 miles of powered range.

How hard would you expect it to be to put one of those ontop of a booster, plus replace the GPS with a seeker, to get a weapon that has over 50 miles of range?
 
Firefinder said:
going back to ramjets real fast.

The Army is fucking around 155mm ramjet shells. With a test last year getting over 50 miles of powered range.

How hard would you expect it to be to put one of those ontop of a booster, plus replace the GPS with a seeker, to get a weapon that has over 50 miles of range?
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Probably not hard to stick one on top of a booster.

We'd need a seeker that was cannon-acceleration hardened, and there aren't many of those around.

Something stupid like just sticking a PGK fuze in for basic GPS guidance is fine and easy, we have cannon-acceleration hardened units for that.
 
sferrin said:
Solid rocket have been stuck around 265 - 280 for half a century. The fact that ramjets have made a come back suggests there isn't a whole lot more to be gained there. Not for lack of trying but AP, HTPB & seasoning is still by far the most common. If you need insensitive munitions it only goes down.
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Is that also for systems like Sprint and CKEM etc?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Probably not hard to stick one on top of a booster.

We'd need a seeker that was cannon-acceleration hardened, and there aren't many of those around.

Something stupid like just sticking a PGK fuze in for basic GPS guidance is fine and easy, we have cannon-acceleration hardened units for that.
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If its on top of a booster it doesn't need cannon hardening.

The Booster Rocket be do the work to get it up to Ramjet power speeds.

Think Mini Talo or Sea Dart missiles over Zeus or Dart.

That be good enough for AA work, need something... More if they want ABM.
 
Firefinder said:
going back to ramjets real fast.

The Army is fucking around 155mm ramjet shells. With a test last year getting over 50 miles of powered range.

How hard would you expect it to be to put one of those ontop of a booster, plus replace the GPS with a seeker, to get a weapon that has over 50 miles of range?
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You could call it Talos.
 
bobbymike said:
Is that also for systems like Sprint and CKEM etc?
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The fuel was not out of the ordinary. It was the geometry and burn RATE additives (zirconium "staples") that made it unusual. ISP was probably lower than average.
 
Firefinder said:
If its on top of a booster it doesn't need cannon hardening.

The Booster Rocket be do the work to get it up to Ramjet power speeds.

Think Mini Talo or Sea Dart missiles over Zeus or Dart.
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Talos and Sea Dart did not use solid motors.

"I have been signaling to industry the need for improved propellant recipes"

Ramjets use jet fuel. Not what he's looking for.
 
kqcke for you said:
Some stuff like CL20 is said to be used, some are offered (for example andruils aluminum-lithium Alitec stuff) and some are more or less just being developt or there development Just finnished. Some stuff are still being developt.
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I’ve read the show stopper for many of these “exotics” is the ability to and cost of ramping up production and replacing current propellants.

A lot of “at the cost of X is it worth 20% better capability”
 
bobbymike said:
I’ve read the show stopper for many of these “exotics” is the ability to and cost of ramping up production and replacing current propellants.

A lot of “at the cost of X is it worth 20% better capability”
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And by the time you add the requirements for insensitivity, chemical and geometric stability, etc. is it still better at all? And how about cost?
 
sferrin said:
Talos and Sea Dart did not use solid motors.
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Yes, they did use solid rocket boosters.


sferrin said:
"I have been signaling to industry the need for improved propellant recipes"

Ramjets use jet fuel. Not what he's looking for.
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I know, let's put Boron into the fuel! :rolleyes:


Firefinder said:
If its on top of a booster it doesn't need cannon hardening.
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Oh, you meant not launching it out of a cannon. Gotcha! I was confused, because the Army ramjet projectiles I'm aware of were all ramjet boosted cannon shells. I thought you were talking about rocket boosting the shell for more range! *facepalm*


Firefinder said:
The Booster Rocket be do the work to get it up to Ramjet power speeds.

Think Mini Talo or Sea Dart missiles over Zeus or Dart.

That be good enough for AA work, need something... More if they want ABM.
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Ramjet missiles for AA work actually have a couple of issues.
  1. They have a significant minimum range because the booster needs to get them up to at least Mach 1.5 and Mach 2+ is better for the ramjet to start.
  2. Ramjets really limit the maneuverability of the missile. Clear down to 5-6 Gees, and that's for a missile with a nose intake. Side intakes are lower, because if the missile skids the inlets get blocked and get weird airflow angles in them. You might actually be better off with a baby J58 turboramjet or something similar instead of a pure ramjet!

I kinda wonder what a 3/4 scale Talos could do with modern tech (let's see here... 0.75^3=~0.42). 21" diameter, 24ft long, and about 3300lbs for the full stack (missile and booster). Missile alone would be ~1435lbs, booster ~1856lbs. It'd be an absolutely terrifying AShM or ASM still, it'd hit like a 15" battleship HE shell! Yes, I would still use a magnesium alloy airframe for the incendiary properties post-impact, not composite. Definitely use a composite-wrapped booster to lighten the load there, however.
 
DrRansom said:
I don't like the new tendency of the US Military to "signal to industry" come up with something to fix some very difficult niche capability.

If the US Army wants improved propellent recipes, then they have to fund the basic research to find them.
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You would think the PEO of missiles and space would know a thing or two about what the branch and industry has invested in that could be leveraged for AMD missile programs? There is a fair bit of S&T trail in investments in HLG designs looking to increase SRM performance and obviously HTK has been demonstrated to the Army by the contractor right down to MHTK size (including prototyping an active seeker if I'm not mistaken) .


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sferrin said:
And by the time you add the requirements for insensitivity, chemical and geometric stability, etc. is it still better at all? And how about cost?
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Hard to say tought i guess one could say yes and no. In the end its a question of requierments and trade offs. What do you want and what do you sacrifice for it.
 
bobbymike said:
I’ve read the show stopper for many of these “exotics” is the ability to and cost of ramping up production and replacing current propellants.

A lot of “at the cost of X is it worth 20% better capability”
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Yeah cost is a bummer. Something CL20 suffered from a lot for a long time until now. Its high cost to produce and its not so kind characteristics makes it quite hard to get into service. But so far there are some reports of countrys which are supposed to using it and atleast development in that direction.
 
Wondering how the the Enduring Shield and the short range range AIM-9X interacts with the Army funding the new M144 155 mm hypervelocity gun, the Multi-Domain Artillery Cannon (MDAC), part of the Hypervelocity Gun Weapon System (HGWS). The cannon said to be able to with stand the pressures of launching the Hypervelocity Projectiles (HVP) shells at hypersonic speeds with the precision guidance provided by the Multi-Function Precision Radar (MFPR) system (possibilty it might be a TA interfometry radar which has the necessary accuracy, previously used in the ARDEC R&D 50mm cannnon program) which able to communicate with the HVP shell to guide it to its targets, via datalink to navigate, fuze, and possibly even provide battle damage assessment at long ranges and in bad weather conditions like heavy rain, snow, wind, and dust - not possible with lasers. Army expects to drive down the costs of air and missile defense munitions by enabling the hypervelocity shells to operate without expensive onboard seekers and HGWS system to be integrated with the IBCS.

Also noticeable the Army cut $4.8 billion from its IFPC FY2025 future budgets for the 300 kW High Energy Laser, HEL.

www.militaryaerospace.com

Army putting pieces together for cannon that fires hypervelocity projectiles for battlefield air defense

The HGWS is to be a small, flexible hypervelocity projectile able to shoot from an Army M144 155-millimeter howitzer and Navy 5-inch deck guns.
www.militaryaerospace.com www.militaryaerospace.com
 

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