Arado Ar 232/432, Projects, Prototypes & Variants

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Look inside the current issue of TAH

What is Rechlin 104?
In late 1942 Allied photo-reconnaissance revealed the existence of a “peculiar-shaped cargo ’plane” at German airfields. What was it? Chris Gibson investigates . . .

I haven't found the full article in internet, only a short note as quoted above and I wonder where designation or name Rechlin 104 of the Tausendfüßler
came from.

 

[CJGibson]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Funnily enough, you'll find out when you buy the magazine. Aye, amazing!

Chris

 

[Schneiderman]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

;D ;D ;D

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

If its not on the internet it doesn't exist.... ;D

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Maybe I should log off the forum and keep buying aviation magazines from all over the world to get answers I hoped to find here.
Actually I spend a lot of money for the Polish aviation press and books. Additionally I need money for my other pleasures, not to mention everyday life.
Well, I'm not a millionaire.

Was the Arado Ar 432 project of the same construction as Ar 232 differentiating only with replacement of strategic materials ?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Hi

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

@ Justo Miranda
Thank You very much for Your attachment, I just asked for someting like this.

 

[CJGibson]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Boogey, here's a good reason you should buy the mag (apart from its excellent content):

A brave Polish engineer played a major part in the story. It's a detective story that involves Constance Babbington-Smith, Eric Brown and brave resistance fighters around occupied Europe.


Chris

 

[Schneiderman]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Maybe I should log off the forum and keep buying aviation magazines from all over the world to get answers I hoped to find here.

No but when you are told where the information you are seeking can be found and its in a magazine published just a few months ago then it is better to buy it than hope to find a copyright-breaking copy on the internet. Respect the rights of the author and the publisher.

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

I'm sure I could find many informations about resistance activity of Polish men and women connected with aviation in my private library,
but frankly saying I'm not spacially interested in such matter.

@ Justo Miranda
There's a oddly designation concerning Junkers Ju 252 as according to the provisionally system it should oscillte about 112, not 33.
@ Schneiderman
Have You any idea where I can take money from to buy this expensive magazine for learning only a few words on Rechlin designations.
£15 is really big money for me as such a price I paid for 526 pages book attached below.

 

[CJGibson]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

No problem Boogey, already done that bit, for the article. Just thought you might be interested in how a Polish engineer risked their life to help the Allies.

Chris

 

[Schneiderman]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Have You any idea where I can take money from to buy this expensive magazine for learning only few words on Rechlin designations.

Breaking copyright is theft, a lack of money is no excuse

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

If I good understood all the informations You post here come just from Your memory and You don't use any books and magazines not to break copyrights.
I just asked for the designation explanation, not for full content of the magazine and I didn't care where the information would come from.
We have in Poland such a vitticism : " Chcesz cukierka, to se kup ". You don't have money You get nothing, so don't ask even for the sweet.
Justo Miranda answered me. Did he break the law ?

 

[CJGibson]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

'I just asked for the designation explanation, not for full content of the magazine'

Errrr. no, this is what you posted:

'I haven't found the full article in internet'

Which to me sounds like you were after a ripped-off copy.

We explained why it isn't on the internet - it's in an article in a magazine that was published last week. An article that I spent time and money researching and writing, so it's in my interest and ultimately everyone on this forum's interest, that I, and the other authors here, are encouraged to write more articles and books that people are interested in and willing to pay for, rather than just think 'What's the point, I'll just get ripped off.' That's why I stopped my website in 2003.

I can't speak for the other writers and illustrators on SPF but any money I make gets ploughed into the next project and I think over the years we've helped more than a few folk. Seeing our work posted willy-nilly on the web is soul-destroying. Advertising that you're attempting it is really annoying.

Chris

 

[hesham]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

I'm sure I could find many informations about resistance activity of Polish men and women connected with aviation in my private library,
but frankly saying I'm not spacially interested in such matter.

@ Justo Miranda
There's a oddly designation concerning Junkers Ju 252 as according to the provisionally system it should oscillte about 112, not 33.
@ Schneiderman
Have You any idea where I can take money from to buy this expensive magazine for learning only a few words on Rechlin designations.
£15 is really big money for me as such a price I paid for 526 pages book attached below.

My dear Boogey,

I have this book,in which page ?.

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

'I just asked for the designation explanation, not for full content of the magazine'

Errrr. no, this is what you posted:

'I haven't found the full article in internet'

Which to me sounds like you were after a ripped-off copy.

We explained why it isn't on the internet - it's in an article in a magazine that was published last week. An article that I spent time and money researching and writing, so it's in my interest and ultimately everyone on this forum's interest, that I, and the other authors here, are encouraged to write more articles and books that people are interested in and willing to pay for, rather than just think 'What's the point, I'll just get ripped off.' That's why I stopped my website in 2003.

I can't speak for the other writers and illustrators on SPF but any money I make gets ploughed into the next project and I think over the years we've helped more than a few folk. Seeing our work posted willy-nilly on the web is soul-destroying. Advertising that you're attempting it is really annoying.

Chris

Believe me I understand Your point of view, it is quite clear for me that every author expects honest wages for his honest work.
When I wrote " I haven't found the full article in internet ", it meant I have seen only this :
http://www.theaviationhistorian.com/preview.htm#.WnHCQ4jOXIU
and only this !
And I have immediately forgotten about the magazine as the source.
It made me searching for an answer on my question on the forum, counting simply for members help. Is it theft ?
How could I be sure that when I order the magazine, pay a lot of money, and when it comes to me at the end, I'll find the answer there ?
I'm very sorry if You feel offended.
Now I have to check what exactly means " a ripped-off copy ". I surely didn't want to rip anybody and anything.

hesham « on: Today at 14:21:35 »
I have this book,in which page ?.

I'm a little bit confused, what book ?

 

[CJGibson]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Thank you Boogey, I understand.

Chris

 

[dan_inbox]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

I haven't found the full article in internet, only a short note as quoted above and I wonder where designation or name Rechlin 104 of the Tausendfüßler
came from.

Tausendfüßler means centipede, and you can see why it got this nickname on this photo:

 

[Arjen]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Starting in June 1943, Allied intelligence named unidentified German types in a name-number format. The name part referred to the place where the aircraft was first spotted. The number referred to the aircraft's approxmate wing span in feet. Rechlin 104: an aircraft first spotted at Rechlin with a 104ft wing span.
Source: 'Die deutsche Luftfahrt - Erprobungsstellen bis 1945' by Beauvais/Kössler/Mayer/Regel, Bernard & Graefe 1998, page 124-125.
Rechlin 104 is explicitly linked to Ar 232.
<edit> as mentioned earlier by Justo Miranda in reply #45, who helpfully provided scans of the relevant pages in the English edition of the book

 

[Silencer1]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Another example of using such identification system was "Peenemünde 20".

Any guesses?

 

[sienar]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Another example of using such identification system was "Peenemünde 20".

Any guesses?

V-1?

 

[Silencer1]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

V-1?

Precisely! Constance Babington-Smith recognized it for the first time.

Perhaps new topic, describing Allies' naming system for the Axis aircraft would be a right place for this Rechlin 104, and Peenemunde 20?Are there any other WW2 aircraft, wihich initially found by photo recconaisance?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

V-1?

Precisely! Constance Babington-Smith recognized it for the first time.

Perhaps new topic, describing Allies' naming system for the Axis aircraft would be a right place for this Rechlin 104, and Peenemunde 20?Are there any other WW2 aircraft, wihich initially found by photo recconaisance?

I think just about every German production type which wasn't around at the beginning of the war got a temporary name through photo reconnaissance before its true identity was discovered. For example, the Do 335 was the 'Lowenthal 47', the He 219 was the 'Schwechat 70' and the Ar 234 was the 'Rechlin 46'.

 

[Arjen]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

Was the Arado Ar 432 project of the same construction as Ar 232 differentiating only with replacement of strategic materials ?

To some extent - yes.
The replacement alone of much of the Ar 232's aluminium by the Ar 432's steel and wood necessitated structural changes. There were some additional changes, as described in 'Die deutsche Luftfahrt - Arado Flugzeuge' by Jörg Armin Kranzhoff, Bernard & Graefe 2001
- fixed tricycle gear, 'centipede' wheels omitted
- cargo hold lengthened from 6.6m to 10m
- Ar 432B-1 would have had an aluminium cargo hold, Ar 432B-2's hold would have been of fabric-covered steel frame construction
- wider wing centre section, with the wing spar passing through the cargo hold

 

[Boogey]

Re: German Rechlin 104 Airplane ?

I haven't found the full article in internet, only a short note as quoted above and I wonder where designation or name Rechlin 104 of the Tausendfüßler
came from.

Tausendfüßler means centipede, and you can see why it got this nickname on this photo:

Thanks for explanation and I hope it was directed to other forum members as I have used this nick knowing well what it concerns to.

@ Arjen
Thanks, I heard only about the material replacement, without the details You wrote about.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Undercarriage looks unchanged to me.

 

[Arjen]

I don't have Mr Kranzhoff's book with me right now, but I seem to recall seeing the same image there. Kranzhoff writes about the 'centipede' wheels being omitted and a change to fixed gear as a late development in the project, so the image's creation may have preceded that decision. I only have secondary sources, if your primary sources show the retention of the 'centipede' wheels etc, I'm quite willing to accept that. Will check the book later.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I don't have Mr Kranzhoff's book with me right now, but I seem to recall seeing the same image there. Kranzhoff writes about the 'centipede' wheels being omitted and a change to fixed gear as a late development in the project, so the image's creation may have preceded that decision. I only have secondary sources, if your primary sources show the retention of the 'centipede' wheels etc, I'm quite willing to accept that. Will check the book later.

No my drawing's slightly different. I think the Ar 432 was just a change of materials. The change of undercarriage, longer wings etc. would have resulted in a new aircraft, needing a new designation. The designs Kranzhoff is talking about are described by Arado as Einfachtransporters. The full report on them is downloadable from deutscheluftwaffe.de

 

[Arjen]

Kranzhoff writes several pages about Einfachtransporters, that's where I may have mixed things up. Will check.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Kranzhoff writes several pages about Einfachtransporters, that's where I may have mixed things up. Will check.

Kranzhoff writes several pages about Einfachtransporters, that's where I may have mixed things up. Will check.

Kranzhoff says: "In 1943 in an "Elaboration on Development Lines", Arado had pressed Milch "to continue what Arado had begun", as "rough-field transports will also be useful in the future", none of the projected developments based on the Ar 232 got off the drawing board.
The next planned development, the Ar 432, had the same engine layout and the cockpit and aft fuselage were the same as those of the Ar 232. There were only minor differences in dimensions. The cargo hold was supposed to be lengthened from 6.6 to 10 metres. Typical loads included half company consisting of 80 troops, eight anti-tank guns with 32 men, or three field howitzers with 18 men. Fuel capacity was supposed to be doubled. To achieve an acceptable wing loading, the wing centre section was to be lengthened, resulting in a wing area of 165m2 compared to the 142.5m2 of the Ar 232 B. The increased weight would have made necessary larger wheels on the tricycle undercarriage.
"One new consideration was that of also building the aircraft as a conventional transport without caterpillar undercarriage, with just a fixed tricycle landing gear. The payload of the Ar 432 rough field transport was 3200kg. Without the weight of the caterpillar undercarriage (5000kg) an airfield version of the aircraft would have had a greater payload than even the normal version of the Ar 432 in overload condition, meaning a landing on the tricycle undercarriage only (4600kg)." Then he discusses the bit about the gradual replacement of dural with wood, which I think we can all agree on.
The latter bit about the airfield, rather than rough-field, transport is at least partly right, although the Ar 432 doesn't seem to have been proposed with a fixed undercarriage. It's possible that Kranzhoff is actually talking about some later version of the Ar 432 we don't have any other information on, but the documents I've seen don't support his assertions about the undercarriage or the cargo hold lengthening significantly.

 

[Arjen]

All of the images you posted from reply #65 onwards appear in the German edition, with the exception of the image in reply #67 of the twin-engined Einfach-Transporter. The chapter's title is 'Einfach-Transporter Ar 432', this led me to interpret all information as referring to variations of the Ar 432. Kranzhoff explicitly mentions the 'Entwurf E 441' "»Flugplatztransporter« ohne Raupenfahrwerk" as a variant of the Ar 432.
Kranzhoff doesn't mention a fixed undercarriage, that was me reading something in a drawing that wasn't there :-(

All in all: three drawings in the book showing Ar 432 *with* 'Raupenfahrwerk', one without.
Keeping in mind your access to primary material (and having just read several of your publications), all your observations are welcome.

 

[newsdeskdan]

All of the images you posted from reply #65 onwards appear in the German edition, with the exception of the image in reply #67 of the twin-engined Einfach-Transporter. The chapter's title is 'Einfach-Transporter Ar 432', this led me to interpret all information as referring to variations of the Ar 432. Kranzhoff explicitly mentions the 'Entwurf E 441' "»Flugplatztransporter« ohne Raupenfahrwerk" as a variant of the Ar 432.
Kranzhoff doesn't mention a fixed undercarriage, that was me reading something in a drawing that wasn't there :-(

All in all: three drawings in the book showing Ar 432 *with* 'Raupenfahrwerk', one without.
Keeping in mind your access to primary material (and having just read several of your publications), all your observations are welcome.

Hm. I only have the 2012 Schiffer English edition, which must be lacking some of the images (all of the ones I've have posted are from the same document, available on deutscheluftwaffe.de). Regarding the fixed undercarriage - it does say that in the English edition. p39, middle column of text, second paragraph down: "One new consideration was that of also building the aircraft as a conventional transport without caterpillar undercarriage, with just a fixed tricycle landing gear." Is this a mistranslation?
Yes, the Ar 432 does appear to have been considered in both rough-field and airfield versions. But I have yet to see anything convincing about an extended cargo bay or even a larger wingspan for the Ar 432.
With regard to primary material, I recently discovered some factory photographs of early Ar 232 models. What do you make of the 'plate'?

 

[Arjen]

The plate reminds me of the Dobbas collapsible freight container that was fitted to a Bf 110E for trials. Fuel tank? Not deep enough. Something to assist landing on water? Or to keep it from sinking into soft ground?

 

[newsdeskdan]

The plate reminds me of the Dobbas collapsible freight container that was fitted to a Bf 110E for trials. Fuel tank? Not deep enough. Something to assist landing on water? Or to keep it from sinking into soft ground?

I have no idea what it is - I like your suggestion of something to prevent it sinking into soft ground but if that's what it was for you'd think there would be a photo of it doing that, which there isn't. Does Kranzhoff have anything on the Ar 232 A-See and B-See in the German edition? There's nothing in the English edition but it seems like a lot of work went into them. I have a couple of reports on model tests in wave tanks.

 

[Arjen]

Regarding the fixed undercarriage - it does say that in the English edition. p39, middle column of text, second paragraph down: "One new consideration was that of also building the aircraft as a conventional transport without caterpillar undercarriage, with just a fixed tricycle landing gear." Is this a mistranslation?

No mistranslation.
On page 264, Kranzhoff mentions a May 1943 decision to adopt a fixed tricycle undercarriage. Wasn't imagining that, after all. I'll try to present the German text tomorrow. Never having seen the Schiffer edition, it might be interesting to compare the two.
Nothing on the Ar 232 A-See or B-See in the German edition.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Regarding the fixed undercarriage - it does say that in the English edition. p39, middle column of text, second paragraph down: "One new consideration was that of also building the aircraft as a conventional transport without caterpillar undercarriage, with just a fixed tricycle landing gear." Is this a mistranslation?

No mistranslation.
On page 264, Kranzhoff mentions a May 1943 decision to adopt a fixed tricycle undercarriage. Wasn't imagining that, after all. I'll try to present the German text tomorrow. Never having seen the Schiffer edition, it might be interesting to compare the two.
Nothing on the Ar 232 A-See or B-See in the German edition.

I think there's probably a great deal more to say about the development of the Ar 232 than Kranzhoff has said.

 

[robunos]

The plate reminds me of the Dobbas collapsible freight container that was fitted to a Bf 110E for trials. Fuel tank? Not deep enough. Something to assist landing on water? Or to keep it from sinking into soft ground?

I have no idea what it is - I like your suggestion of something to prevent it sinking into soft ground but if that's what it was for you'd think there would be a photo of it doing that, which there isn't.

That would be my surmise, too, a ,simpler, quicker, and cheaper to make alternative to the 'Raupenfahrwerk'. Carrying it further, mention has already been made of a tricycle undercarriage only version, I could see the aircraft leaving the factory in this form, with the 'plate' being available as a Rustzats (sp.?), if a rough field capability was required.
Stupid question time. We have the Ar 232, and Ar 432. What, if anything was the Ar 332?


cheers,
Robin.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The plate reminds me of the Dobbas collapsible freight container that was fitted to a Bf 110E for trials. Fuel tank? Not deep enough. Something to assist landing on water? Or to keep it from sinking into soft ground?

I have no idea what it is - I like your suggestion of something to prevent it sinking into soft ground but if that's what it was for you'd think there would be a photo of it doing that, which there isn't.

That would be my surmise, too, a ,simpler, quicker, and cheaper to make alternative to the 'Raupenfahrwerk'. Carrying it further, mention has already been made of a tricycle undercarriage only version, I could see the aircraft leaving the factory in this form, with the 'plate' being available as a Rustzats (sp.?), if a rough field capability was required.
Stupid question time. We have the Ar 232, and Ar 432. What, if anything was the Ar 332?


cheers,
Robin.

There was a DFS 332 but that was quite late-war. I saw a document a while back, which I'm now unable to locate, which showed the Ar 232 with two engines, then the Ar 232 with four engines. The latter was labelled 'Ar 432' but this was crossed out and in its place had been pencilled in 'Ar 232 B'. I wondered at the time whether this was evidence that the Ar 432 designation was originally intended for the four-engined version but for whatever reason this just became the 'B'. This would've left Arado with the Ar 432 designation, approved by the RLM, but not actually applied to anything. This might also explain why trying to work out what the Ar 432 was intended to be is proving so problematic.

 

[Arjen]

Hm. I only have the 2012 Schiffer English edition, which must be lacking some of the images (all of the ones I've have posted are from the same document, available on deutscheluftwaffe.de). Regarding the fixed undercarriage - it does say that in the English edition. p39, middle column of text, second paragraph down: "One new consideration was that of also building the aircraft as a conventional transport without caterpillar undercarriage, with just a fixed tricycle landing gear." Is this a mistranslation?

Kranzhoff has written at least two books on Arado. The first one is 'Arado - Geschichte eines Flugzeugwerks', Aviatic Verlag 1995 - 168 pages.
https://www.amazon.de/Arado-Geschichte-Flugzeugwerks-J%C3%B6rg-Kranzhoff/dp/392550527X/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1517677727&sr=8-4-fkmr1&keywords=j%C3%B6rg+armin+kranzhoff
This is the book that was translated, then published by Schiffer.

The second one is 'Die deutsche Luftfahrt - Arado-Flugzeuge - Vom Doppeldecker zum Strahlflugzeug', Bernard & Graefe - 408 pages.
https://www.amazon.de/Arado-Flugzeuge-Doppeldecker-Strahlflugzeug-deutsche-Luftfahrt/dp/3763761225/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517677497&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=j%C3%B6rg+armin+kranzhoff
This is the book with all the images missing from the Schiffer edition.

From page 264 of the B & G book:

 

[airman]

Arado Ar 232 Tausendfüßler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

on wikipedia they speak that Arado Ar 432 was a renamed version of Arado 232 C and there was 532 and 632 variants with six engines .