All variants of GMLRS

[steelfec]

In 2022, Lockheed Martin presented a miniature of the HIMARS launcher with a longer container (1). Probably, like the Koreans with their K-239 sets (2), the Americans also decided to use the free space they have on the launcher (3) to extend the missiles carried on the current carriers to the maximum.

Does anyone of you know anything more about this elongated container, apart from the fact that the container presented in the photo probably would carry some type of PrSM missile? Have you heard information about the length of this container, or whether the containers for the ER GMLRS missiles will also be longer than the GMLRS version?

(1)

(2)

(3)

A photo with a thumbnail of the HIMARS set with an elongated container comes from the website: https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/10/10/ausa-2022-lockheed-martins-precision-fires-update/

 

[Forest Green]

So does this mean GMLRS might be longer than 4m?

Extension seems to be roughly 1m, which would make it as long as a LORA missile.

 

[TomS]

I suspect that what's happening here is a problem with the model, not a real thing. I'm fairly certain that the model has swappable rocket pods (I've seen the same chassis with GMLRS instead of PrSM or ATACMS). And in this case, they haven't got the pod seated properly when they assembled it for the show. Can't tell from this angle whether it actually extends to the back of the HIMARS cradle or not, and I can't find any other angles that show it in detail.

 

[steelfec]

I suspect that what's happening here is a problem with the model, not a real thing. I'm fairly certain that the model has swappable rocket pods (I've seen the same chassis with GMLRS instead of PrSM or ATACMS). And in this case, they haven't got the pod seated properly when they assembled it for the show. Can't tell from this angle whether it actually extends to the back of the HIMARS cradle or not, and I can't find any other angles that show it in detail.

I think everything is fine with the container. Precision Strike Missiles are, from what I know, available in 3 different ranges.

PrSM Increment 1 will have a range of 499km, PrSM Increment 3 will have a range of 700km, and PrSM Increment 4 will have a range of 1,000km. The Increment 4 version is to have a ramjet engine. "Army taps teams to build new Precision Strike Missile for targets beyond 1,000 km"

The version with a range of 500 km, from what I understand, is to be 156 inches or 3962 mm long.

In my opinion, the graphic below shows the visualization of Precision Strike Missiles in the Increment 3 variant and its container was mounted on the HIMARS miniature to which I referred earlier.

The above graphic comes from: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/deepstrike.htm

 

[Forest Green]

Apparently increment 1 is expected to better 500km significantly, some reports say 650km.

Precision Strike Missile (PrSM) Information Update - Naval News

One of the greatest advantages of the U.S. Army's Precision Strike Missile PrSM is that it can hit moving land and maritime targets using a multi-mode seeker.

www.navalnews.com

 

[kqcke for you]

In 2022, Lockheed Martin presented a miniature of the HIMARS launcher with a longer container (1). Probably, like the Koreans with their K-239 sets (2), the Americans also decided to use the free space they have on the launcher (3) to extend the missiles carried on the current carriers to the maximum.
(2)

Ure / KTSSM 1/2 is only 4m long which is just a tad over GMLRS 3.96m. KTSSM Block II and probaly Block III will be mutch larger and longer. Block is supposed to have a 900mm diameter and a Hyunmoo-II launcher variation.

 

[NMaude]

405 miles? That's very impressive.

 

[TomS]

.

The above graphic comes from: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/deepstrike.htm

The above graphic is nonsense, because it shows PrSM and ATACMS as the same diameter, which we know is not the case -- PrSM is much smaller in diameter but roughly the same length (4 meters).

More fundamentally, an extended pod to the extent seen in the model picture does not fit in either HIMARS or MLRS when the launcher is stowed. Seriously, look at these pics. There is a tiny bit of space ahead of the stowed launcher in HIMARS and basically none at all in the M270. Nothing like the room to fit a canister that sticks out as far as the model shows.

 

[NMaude]

The above graphic is nonsense, because it shows PrSM and ATACMS as the same diameter, which we know is not the case

I noticed that and to be honest I thought the "PrSM" looked like the bastard love-child of an ATACMS and a V2.

 

[steelfec]

The above graphic is nonsense, because it shows PrSM and ATACMS as the same diameter, which we know is not the case -- PrSM is much smaller in diameter but roughly the same length (4 meters).

More fundamentally, an extended pod to the extent seen in the model picture does not fit in either HIMARS or MLRS when the launcher is stowed. Seriously, look at these pics. There is a tiny bit of space ahead of the stowed launcher in HIMARS and basically none at all in the M270. Nothing like the room to fit a canister that sticks out as far as the model shows.

View attachment 725400

View attachment 725401

You are right that this missile will not fit on the manned HIMARS launcher. In my opinion, there is about 30-40 cm of space there.

But that doesn't mean that the rocket itself is nonsense. Maybe it just needs different carrier.

​

And back to my main question. Have you heard any information that could indicate that the Americans are planning to use slightly longer containers in HIMARS, just like the Koreans are currently doing in K239?

 

[kqcke for you]

Has anyone some information on the EAW warhead which is in develoment? All iccould find was that its an upgrade for the GMLRS family and it was chosen other the spiral seeker. Which could mean that next to warhead enhancements (new explosives or fragmentation) that the warhead may actualy be larger. That would be quite an interresting development.

 

[TomS]

Has anyone some information on the EAW warhead which is in develoment? All iccould find was that its an upgrade for the GMLRS family and it was chosen other the spiral seeker. Which could mean that next to warhead enhancements (new explosives or fragmentation) that the warhead may actualy be larger. That would be quite an interresting development.

I presume you've read this: https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/... Budget/rdte/RDTE-Vol 3-Budget Activity 7.pdf

Title: Enhanced Alternative Warhead
Description: The Enhanced Alternative Warhead effort modifies the AW warhead, proximity sensor, and warhead fuze for increased lethality against light and medium armored targets.

The fact that EAW is applicable to both Standard Range GMRS and ER GMLRS suggests that this isn't the same warhead for both, but rather an approach to warhead design. Nothing in the document suggests a larger warhead to me (that would require a rocket redesign, not just warhead). Rather, it suggests they are tinkering with height-of-burst and fragment size (probably more large fragments) to penetrate vehicle armor.

IMO, the really interesting item in that same document is this:

Title: Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) Payload
Description: The Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) will provide capability to engage against armored and mechanized forces utilizing the ER GMLRS as the delivery vehicle. The Army will conduct a study determining the appropriate SFW to utilize against these targets and to develop and field this capability no later than FY 2030. The SFW will consist of a munition dispenser containing multiple submunitions. These submunitions will independently acquire, identify, and engage these targets.

The interesting bit is that they are looking at multiple alternative SFW payloads here. The currently fielded ones (BLU-108/Skeet, SMArt, BONUS) are 5-6 inches in diameter, just the wrong size to fit efficiently into a 10-inch ER GMLRS. You only get one stack of munitions and a lot of waste space around it. Are they looking at other options? Anyone know of an existing SFW closer to 4-4.5 inches in diameter? That would pack much more efficiently.

 

[kqcke for you]

I presume you've read this: https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/72/Documents/BudgetMaterial/2024/Base Budget/rdte/RDTE-Vol 3-Budget Activity 7.pdf


The fact that EAW is applicable to both Standard Range GMRS and ER GMLRS suggests that this isn't the same warhead for both, but rather an approach to warhead design.

GMLRS and the ER do use the same warhead tought not the same structure around it.

Nothing in the document suggests a larger warhead to me (that would require a rocket redesign, not just warhead). Rather, it suggests they are tinkering with height-of-burst and fragment size (probably more large fragments) to penetrate vehicle armor.

A larger is actualy possible because (given that the warhead hasn't changed) because we have an increased diameter from 227 to 254mm and the APA 2 seeker space.
Also after some talk about it with others this was found which could indicate some CCM conform submunitions but that would kinda fall under SFWs payload.
https://insidedefense.com/daily-new...-alternative-warhead-scheduled-current-fiscal

IMO, the really interesting item in that same document is this:



The interesting bit is that they are looking at multiple alternative SFW payloads here. The currently fielded ones (BLU-108/Skeet, SMArt, BONUS) are 5-6 inches in diameter, just the wrong size to fit efficiently into a 10-inch ER GMLRS. You only get one stack of munitions and a lot of waste space around it. Are they looking at other options? Anyone know of an existing SFW closer to 4-4.5 inches in diameter? That would pack much more efficiently.

Maybe some form of larger hatchets. Right now it only got a 60mm diameter but something with an increased size to 120mm would fit and give a good punch.