AIM-120 AMRAAM development projects

TomcatViP said:
I hadn't realized it was your design shown above. Nice one.!
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The top one is Boeing's. The other one is mine, just noodling. It'd posted it several times over the years so my first reaction when I saw Boeing's was "WTF?". Could be just coincidence though. Just coincidentally got the 2-stage, same look, same colors, etc.
 
Saudis Cleared To Buy Hundreds More AMRAAM Missiles They've Been Using To Shoot Down Drones.

The AMRAAM is not designed to shoot down small targets like the Qasef-1, a long-range suicide drone derived from the Iranian Ababil-2, as well as the improved Qasef-2K, that are widely used by the Houthis.

However, the limited thermal signature of these drones means an infrared-guided missile such as an AIM-9 Sidewinder is considered a less reliable means of scoring a kill compared to a radar-guided weapon like the AIM-120. Speaking to The War Zone, a former U.S. Air Force F-15 pilot who preferred to remain anonymous explained that while an AMRAAM is not the only option in this type of engagement “it may be best, depending on the target size and engine type.”

Another former USAF Eagle driver, also speaking on condition of anonymity, added: “By not putting out enough of an infrared signature, you might not get a tone before going inside the minimum range, rendering the AIM-9 useless. Apparently, the drones have enough of a radar signature to enable a target lock before hitting the AMRAAM’s minimum range, which would explain the Saudi pilots’ choice of missile.”

www.thedrive.com

Saudis Cleared To Buy Hundreds More AMRAAM Missiles They've Been Using To Shoot Down Drones

Royal Saudi Air Force fighter jets have been using AIM-120 missiles to shoot down Houthi drones regularly for years now.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com

AMRAAM seems like overkill for small drones. :rolleyes:
 
aonestudio said:
Saudis Cleared To Buy Hundreds More AMRAAM Missiles They've Been Using To Shoot Down Drones.

The AMRAAM is not designed to shoot down small targets like the Qasef-1, a long-range suicide drone derived from the Iranian Ababil-2, as well as the improved Qasef-2K, that are widely used by the Houthis.

However, the limited thermal signature of these drones means an infrared-guided missile such as an AIM-9 Sidewinder is considered a less reliable means of scoring a kill compared to a radar-guided weapon like the AIM-120. Speaking to The War Zone, a former U.S. Air Force F-15 pilot who preferred to remain anonymous explained that while an AMRAAM is not the only option in this type of engagement “it may be best, depending on the target size and engine type.”

Another former USAF Eagle driver, also speaking on condition of anonymity, added: “By not putting out enough of an infrared signature, you might not get a tone before going inside the minimum range, rendering the AIM-9 useless. Apparently, the drones have enough of a radar signature to enable a target lock before hitting the AMRAAM’s minimum range, which would explain the Saudi pilots’ choice of missile.”

www.thedrive.com

Saudis Cleared To Buy Hundreds More AMRAAM Missiles They've Been Using To Shoot Down Drones

Royal Saudi Air Force fighter jets have been using AIM-120 missiles to shoot down Houthi drones regularly for years now.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com

AMRAAM seems like overkill for small drones. :rolleyes:
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Whatever happened to the mini AAM the US was working on? (Smaller than CUDA.)
 
aonestudio said:
AMRAAM seems like overkill for small drones
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Unfortunately there seems to be no alternative, there isn’t enough of an IR output for AIM-9s and a gun kill on something that small is exceedingly difficult. Either revamp the “Firefly” IFFC for automated gun kills or have an electro-optical/laser seeker for the AIM-9 to be slaved to a targeting pod.
 
Or use more weapons like the APKWS.

USAF Works Cruise Missile Defense With APKWS Rockets - Second Line of Defense

A F-16C flown by Maj Jeffrey Entine, 85th Flight Test Squadron test pilot, fires a rocket at a test drone at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Dec. 12, 2019. This test successfully demonstrated shooting a small drone at low altitudes. EGLIN AFB, FL, UNITED STATES 12.19.2019 Video by 1st Lt. Savanah...
sldinfo.com sldinfo.com
 
isayyo2 said:
aonestudio said:
AMRAAM seems like overkill for small drones
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there seems to be no alternative, there isn’t enough of an IR output for AIM-9s and a gun kill on something that small is exceedingly difficult. Either revamp the “Firefly” IFFC for automated gun kills or have an electro-optical/laser seeker for the AIM-9 to be slaved to a targeting pod.
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Given modern tech, it would be easy to put a radar seeker into a Sidewinder, a la AIM-9C but actually workable.

There might also be a future role for the Miniature Self-Defense Missile, who h just started real development recently.
 
isayyo2 said:
aonestudio said:
AMRAAM seems like overkill for small drones
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there seems to be no alternative, there isn’t enough of an IR output for AIM-9s and a gun kill on something that small is exceedingly difficult. Either revamp the “Firefly” IFFC for automated gun kills or have an electro-optical/laser seeker for the AIM-9 to be slaved to a targeting pod.
Click to expand...

A modern IR homer with Imaging Infrared will definitely have more than enough IR output from a ICE powered drone to get a lock, 9B's were locking onto smouldering cigarettes from 50 yards away in the mid-50's, anything from 9L onwards could get a lock with ease. For a missile with IIR like 9X or Asraam its even easier. This is particularly so for the Iranian drones that the Houthis are using that have the engine exposed right at the rear of the airframe. The heat that will be giving out is easily enough.

A potential reason for using AMRAAM is they don't want to get down low, closer, to the target, the Houthi's have shown plenty of skill at adapting AAM's for ground launch, along side shorter ranged MANPADS.
 
TomS said:
Given modern tech, it would be easy to put a radar seeker into a Sidewinder, a la AIM-9C but actually workable.
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That's what I was thinking too, I remember back in the 1990s reading an article in Flight International where Raytheon (Or was it Hughes?) had created and successfully bench-tested an active radar seeker that was only 4" in diameter.
 
NMaude said:
TomS said:
Given modern tech, it would be easy to put a radar seeker into a Sidewinder, a la AIM-9C but actually workable.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking too, I remember back in the 1990s reading an article in Flight International where Raytheon (Or was it Hughes?) had created and successfully bench-tested an active radar seeker that was only 4" in diameter.
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I was thinking of MHTK, which is less than 70mm in diameter with a surface-launched range of 3 km.
 
timmymagic said:
A modern IR homer with Imaging Infrared will definitely have more than enough IR output from a ICE powered drone to get a lock, 9B's were locking onto smouldering cigarettes from 50 yards away in the mid-50's, anything from 9L onwards could get a lock with ease. For a missile with IIR like 9X or Asraam its even easier. This is particularly so for the Iranian drones that the Houthis are using that have the engine exposed right at the rear of the airframe. The heat that will be giving out is easily enough.
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Disagree, particularly on the " anything from 9L onwards could get a lock with ease". As a non-imaging seeker, you really don't want it locking onto slightly warm objects. In Saudi Arabia, everything is pretty warm near the ground.

AIM-9X seeker is an imaging MWIR seeker optimised to detect and shoot down threat aircraft, not tiny drones like these. Some factors to consider:

It is possible that the low temperature of a 25HP internal combustion engine isn't sufficient to easily distinguish from e.g. warm sand, birds, etc. It may also only be detectable at usable ranges from specific angles e.g. the rear.

Air absorbs specific IR frequencies better that others, so seekers are often optimized to specific "bands" of temperatures giving good transmissivity.

Filters on seekers try to filter out non-target signals.

Sure, you can get a lock on an Mi-24 at a reasonable distance, but that has 2 x 2200 HP engines, not 1 x 25HP, and turboshafts are hotter than pistons.

I see no reason to doubt the pilots here.


timmymagic said:
A potential reason for using AMRAAM is they don't want to get down low, closer, to the target, the Houthi's have shown plenty of skill at adapting AAM's for ground launch, along side shorter ranged MANPADS.
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Maybe, but the video posted here shows a close range AIM-120 shot.
 
I'm surprised there are A models still around, i'd have thought that those that haven't been expended would've been upgraded to the B model.
 

Raytheon Proposes New Extreme-Range Amraam-AXE Concept | Aviation Week Network

The air-launched Amraam-AXE concept is being developed as a stop-gap solution for fighters that need an beyond visual range air-to-air missile with greater range than the baseline AIM-120 Amraam.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com

Interesting, although I'd imagine that this may directly compete with the AIM-260, and as such, I'm not sure how inclined the USAF and USN would jump on this.
 
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:

Raytheon Proposes New Extreme-Range Amraam-AXE Concept | Aviation Week Network

The air-launched Amraam-AXE concept is being developed as a stop-gap solution for fighters that need an beyond visual range air-to-air missile with greater range than the baseline AIM-120 Amraam.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com

Interesting, although I'd imagine that this may directly compete with the AIM-260, and as such, I'm not sure how inclined the USAF and USN would jump on this.
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Continuation of the concept exploration from about this time last year?

Edit: forgot to add a link to our specific AMRAAM-ER thread.

 
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icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:

Raytheon Proposes New Extreme-Range Amraam-AXE Concept | Aviation Week Network

The air-launched Amraam-AXE concept is being developed as a stop-gap solution for fighters that need an beyond visual range air-to-air missile with greater range than the baseline AIM-120 Amraam.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com

Interesting, although I'd imagine that this may directly compete with the AIM-260, and as such, I'm not sure how inclined the USAF and USN would jump on this.
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No way to tell if it will compete with the AIM-260 and the USAF and USN is committed to buying the AIM-120 through 2030 so there’s every possibility that they look at buying any upgraded version that Raytheon can deliver to meet those timelines.
 
If they hadn't mentioned F-22, I'd be thinking that this was an exportable alternative to AIM-260 JATM.
 
It makes sense to further develop this variant and buy it over the next eight to ten years to build up inventory. Pure Aim-260 annul buys won’t happen till the 2030s so there are thousands of AIM-120s that the two services still plan on buying in the coming years so a more capable variant can be part of that mix.
 
Assuming it can be fielded on the cheap. But I suspect there's a lot of work to be done to ensure that the missile still works on the aircraft with that the larger diameter motor. Even thought he seeker is nominally the same, a lot of the rest of the system is new to an air-launched environment. So, you have to do fit checks, acoustic/vibration testing, separation tests, etc.
 
Given that the AMRAAM-ER/AXE (whatever the designation will be) combines the AIM-120C-7/D guidance and control section with the ESSM motor, I wonder if adapting the ESSM Block 2 for aerial launch would be cheaper. It has less of a footprint as well, being the same length as an AMRAAM, while the ER is about 16 inches longer. Obviously, one of the challenges would be that the launch environments wouldn't quite be the same.
 
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
Given that the AMRAAM-ER/AXE (whatever the designation will be) combines the AIM-120C-7/D guidance and control section with the ESSM motor, I wonder if adapting the ESSM Block 2 for aerial launch would be cheaper. It has less of a footprint as well, being the same length as an AMRAAM, while the ER is about 16 inches longer. Obviously, one of the challenges would be that the launch environments wouldn't quite be the same.
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Also, the datalinks are different. Not 100% sure if ESSM Block 2 would work with an aircraft link.

 
www.rtx.com/news/news-center/2022/08/30/us-air-force-awards-raytheon-missiles-defense-972-million-for-upgraded-amraams
US Air Force awards Raytheon Missiles & Defense $972 million for upgraded AMRAAMs.

TUCSON, Ariz., Aug. 30, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Missiles & Defense, a Raytheon Technologies (NYSE: RTX) business, is awarded a $972 million contract for upgraded AMRAAM® missiles. This is the first AMRAAM contract to produce an entire lot of AIM-120D3 and AIM-120C8 missiles developed under the Form, Fit, Function Refresh, also known as F3R, which updates both the missile's hardware and software.
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Quick question for anyone who might know the answer. When was it decided to use a smaller diameter for the AMRAAM (7" or maybe 180mm) versus 8" for the Sparrow. I know this allowed it to be carried on the wingtip pylons of the F-16 but were there any other important reasons for this?
 
Colonial-Marine said:
Quick question for anyone who might know the answer. When was it decided to use a smaller diameter for the AMRAAM (7" or maybe 180mm) versus 8" for the Sparrow. I know this allowed it to be carried on the wingtip pylons of the F-16 but were there any other important reasons for this?
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My understanding is that F-16 compatibility was a requirement from the outset thanks to European involvement. That drove it to a launch weight of 350 pounds, which in turn led to the 7-inch diameter. It's not just wingtip launchers either, hanging AMRAAM on the F-16A outer wing stations (2 and 8) called for a lighter missile (and still entailed structural mods from Block 10 forward).
 
Not sure that’s entirely accurate/ the full picture.

The US airforce clearly wanted their F-16 to carry AMRAAMs too. And I’ve read reports that the US Navy wanted a twin launcher and missiles for the AMRAAM to be the approx. size and weight of one Sparrow to help free up stations for air to ground ordnance.

So while some of the smaller intended “European” platforms (Sea Harriers etc.) may have been a partial driver for the sizing of the AMRAAM the US services own needs and requirements appear to have been at least as significant.
 
The Air Force guy (Mike Loh) who started off AMRAAM was explicitly working to get a BVR capability for F-16s in general.

In June 1972, the Air Force had sent Loh to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for a master’s degree in aeronautical engineering and assigned him to the prototype office at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio to manage the budget, contracts, and overall engineering for the Lightweight Fighter. When the F-16 was selected, the Air Force formed a system program office at Wright-Patterson, where Loh signed on as director of projects, with the responsibility to integrate the avionics and weapons systems on the airplane. But he was in a quandary. Air Force four-star generals had ordered him not to put a Sparrow missile on the F-16 because they didn’t want it competing directly with the F-15. But they didn’t say anything about inventing a new missile.

“I pursued a lightweight radar missile very quietly, as an advanced development project, with no strings to the F-16 or any other fighter,” Loh says. “I worked quietly with missile contractors and the Air Force Development Test Center at Eglin to put together radar missile designs that could fit on Sidewinder stations. This initiative later turned into AMRAAM, the Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile.”

Loh wanted the F-16 to be a fighter that was good at both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, but he also needed to keep the weight down. From 1975 to 1978, he worked on a configuration steering group, led by Major General Alton Slay, dedicated to deciding what systems would go on the F-16. “Its goal was very simple,” Loh says of the group. “Just say ‘no.’ ”

Saying no kept the weight down, but people began complaining that the jet would never be useful, so Loh finally revealed his incubating missile. Slay and Loh also believed that eventually many other systems would fit, since the trend toward miniaturization had been leading to smaller weapons and lighter equipment.
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Air Force four-star generals had ordered him not to put a Sparrow missile on the F-16 because they didn’t want it competing directly with the F-15.
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It's a pity that the F-16 wasn't designed with structural provisions in its' wings to carry a Sparrow sized missile on its' wingtips.
 
I am looking at the story of ERAAM, and some posts on websites claim that Raytheon named the AIM-120C8 as ERAAM in its early stages.
During the competition with the Meteor missile, ERAAM used a dual-pulse rocket. This could be the source of the confusion (AIM-120D uses a dual-pulse rocket).
But are these two ERAAMs the same thing? I didn't find source about AIM-120C8/ERAAM.
 
NMaude said:
Air Force four-star generals had ordered him not to put a Sparrow missile on the F-16 because they didn’t want it competing directly with the F-15.
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It's a pity that the F-16 wasn't designed with structural provisions in its' wings to carry a Sparrow sized missile on its' wingtips.
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I think a better idea might have been those pylons on the landing gear doors they tested capable of carrying a Sparrow. I wonder why they never went though with those.
 
bobbymike said:
CAAM & EXRAAM? :D
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Seems like addditional funding for an initiative that started last year, which Raytheon and Boeing are both getting money for.

www.thedefensepost.com

Raytheon Clinches Next-Gen Air-to-Air Missile Concept Funding

The USAF has awarded Raytheon a $21M contract to support the development of the compact air-to-air and extended-range air-to-air missiles.
www.thedefensepost.com www.thedefensepost.com

www.defense.gov

Contracts for December 16, 2022

Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.
www.defense.gov

Raytheon Missiles & Defense, Tucson, Arizona, has been awarded an estimated $21,000,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity, cost-plus-fixed-fee contract. This contract is to develop critical subsystem technologies that support the Compact Air to Air Missile and Extended Range Air to Air Missile systems. Work will be performed in Tucson, Arizona, and is expected to be completed by Dec. 15, 2029. This award is the result of a white paper originating from broad agency announcement FA8651-20-S-0008. Fiscal 2022 research, development, test and evaluation funds in the amount of $1,725,000 are being obligated at the time of award. Air Force Research Laboratory, Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, is the contracting activity (FA8651-23-D-A001).
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www.prnewswire.com

US Air Force, RTX complete first flight test of AIM-120C-8

/PRNewswire/ -- The U.S. Air Force and Raytheon, an RTX (NYSE: RTX) business, successfully completed the first flight test of the AIM-120C-8 – the latest...
www.prnewswire.com www.prnewswire.com
TUCSON, Ariz., Sept. 1, 2023 /PRNewswire/ -- The U.S. Air Force and Raytheon, an RTX (NYSE: RTX) business, successfully completed the first flight test of the AIM-120C-8 – the latest international variant of AMRAAM® developed under the Form, Fit, Function (F3R) refresh. The AIM-120C-8 was fired from an F-15C Eagle and downed the aerial target, meeting all primary objectives for the flight test.

Under the F3R program, engineers used model-based systems engineering initiatives and other digital technologies to upgrade multiple circuit cards and advanced processors in the guidance section of the missile and to re-host legacy software in the AIM-120D-3 and AIM-120C-8 AMRAAMs.

This AIM-120C-8 flight test follows the completion of flight testing of the AIM-120D-3. Flight testing on the AIM-120D-3 was completed in just 11 months after the initial flight test and concluded with showcasing the success of the missile in a highly contested environment.
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